Can we debunk this Sitchin factoid? An Olmec clay 'elephant' in Jalapa...

[MandaJo]

It’s worth noting that along with the “The Olmecs were obviously decended from Africans and the Establishment is hushing it up” crowd, there is also the “The Olmecs were obviously decended from the Shin Chinese and the establishment is hushing it up” crowd. A good way to see the problems with both camps is to compare their evidence to each other–both have some points that sound good to the casual reader the first time through, but since the idea that a boatload of Chinese and a boatload of Sub-Saharan Africans crashed into each other on the coast of Central America (in a cosmic Reese’s momment)sort of boggles the mind, a healthy skepticism is renewed.

[Apollyon]

*Originally posted by squeegee *
I’d say it’s a rotund mouse.

That’s an extremely good thought. Aren’t there various species of long-nosed mice-type animals in the Yucatan area?

I found this picture of an Haitian solenodon, (1/2 way down the page) and I agree, the clay pot’s shape more resembles a nose like this than an elephant’s trunk.

[Apollyon]

*Originally posted by Manda JO *
It’s worth noting that along with the “The Olmecs were obviously decended from Africans and the Establishment is hushing it up” crowd, there is also the “The Olmecs were obviously decended from the Shin Chinese and the establishment is hushing it up” crowd.

And here was me blithely assuming that the Olmecs were descendents of Ice Age peoples who arrived via the Bering Strait land bridge between North America and Asia – hence the somewhat asiatic features apparent in some of their art.

As to the “african” features of the big heads – the features are also not unlike those of some Oceanic/Polynesian people.

[nonsmokingmirror]

If you go to Tabasco/Jalapa (centre of the Olmec culture) you’ll see a whole bunch of people who look remarkably like the Olmec stone heads; they are clearly of native American rather than African descent, however.

BTW, the Chinese culture that allegedly provided the inspiration for Mesoamerican culture is that of the Shang (not Shin) dynasty, which ruled a big chunk of northern China from around 1800-1000 BC – it’s surprising, of course, that the intrepid Chinese who arrived in Mesoamerica to save the natives from their ignorance didn’t pass on their skills in bronzeworking, or any details of their writing system beyond the general idea that it would be a good thing to have one.

[jabe]

Wow…I’d just like to say that this is one of the most interesting, and coolest thread I have ever stumbled upon on Th Straight Dope. Thanks guys!

peace,
JB “definately didn’t decend from Olmec elephants” Ledoux

[Sofa_King]

Mexican woodrat?

[system]

DDG: in re the “African” appearance of Olmecs – based on some pottery sherds-- if you learned nothing from the race threads I should hope that you learned superficial surface morphologies are no indication of direct relationships. Per the ‘negritos’ of … South East Asia.

[Sofa_King]

Well, Collunsbury, the “shards” of which you speak are in fact three-dimensional busts roughly the size of a Volkswagen Microbus–they were on display at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC a few years back–however, I completely agree with you about surface morphology.

[system]

True, true, I was being excessive.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Collounsbury: You offend me deeply when you accuse me of having “learned nothing” from the various race threads. May I remind you that I have contributed to a certain number of the race threads, not to mention occasionally working Google like a Missouri mule to find cites refuting the various racists who have appeared here and there on the boards? I knew all about racism and the genetics of race before I ever came to the SDMB, and my participation in the race threads didn’t teach me anything I hadn’t already known for years.

Also, this thread here is not about racial morphology. Nor is this thread about whether the Olmec statues look “negroid”, or about whether the Olmecs were African. This thread is about whether the ceramic piece in question is an elephant, a mouse, an armadillo, an anteater, or something perhaps more Taiwanese, and whether Sitchin faked it, or what.

Here are a number of serious, unbiased archeological and academic websites that use the adjective “Negroid” to apply to the Olmec heads. I do not believe I was out of line in using the term. One of Mexico’s leading Olmec experts uses it–it is the last quote.

http://www.mesoweb.com/olmec/index.html

Other megalithic heads were discovered in the intervening years, all with “African” facial features. This is not necessarily to suggest that the founders or leaders of Olmec civilization came directly from Africa, since many original populations of countries like Cambodia and the Philippines have similar characteristics. These might have been brought along when the first humans entered the Americas from Asia.

And also:
http://www.mesoweb.com/olmec/headlinks.html

A great deal has been made of the “Negroid” features of the Olmec colossal heads. Various dubious theories have been advanced and, not suprisingly, published on the Web. (Cogent rebuttals have also been presented.)

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~hgb/mexico/22-PREHS.html

Apart from artifacts, little is known of the Olmecs, and less of their origins. Their jade figurines are considered exquisite, while huge stone heads found there are some nine feet high, weigh up to forty tons and seem to be wearing helmets. The facial features appear Negroid, creating unsubstantiated speculation about very early visitors from across the ocean.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/anthro/caribarch/columbus.htm

Olmec carved stone head from Mexico is seen by some as having Negroid features.

Syllabus for Penn State Anthropology 008: Aztecs, Mayas and Incas.

http://www.courses.psu.edu/courseweb/courses/syllabus.cgi?course=anth008_pjc12

Who built the Mayan cities
in a phrase: everyone!
that is, everyone but the survivors of the Spanish conquest themselves
Phoenicians? Chinese? Norse? Welsh? The Lost Tribes of Israel? Mormons?
<snip>
From Asia or Africa?
Africa:
pyramids, calendrical systems, mathematics, sculptured figures with beards or negroid features

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/othersrv/isar/arcade/afam/vsertima.htm

The colossal Olmec heads, which resemble a stereotypical “Negroid,” were carved hundreds of years before the arrival of the presumed models.

http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/prehistory/latinamerica/meso/sites/la_venta.html

The site is known for its large stone sculptures, some depicting Negroid-like heads.

The official website of the Consulate General of Mexico in Austin, Texas.
http://www.onr.com/consulmx/English/Newsletter/december96-3.html

The site of La Venta is formed by a group of altars and tombs carved from basalt. Human figures with an intriguing mix of negroid and mongoloid features are carved on the columns.

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/arch/mexchron.html

Chronological Table
of Mesoamerican Archaeology
Middle Formative (Pre-Classic) Period 900-300 BC
Olmec civilization; widespread trade; diffusion of Olmec traits in many directions; class divisions. Spread of Mayan speakers into Lowlands seems to have occurred in this period.
Caution: The most famous artifacts of the Olmecs were giant stone heads. Some observers have regarded them as having “Negroid” features and have therefore imagined African influence.

From “The Olmec Area”, from Ch. 1 of The Olmec World by Ignacio Bernal, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1969

http://www.smv.org/anth391/Olmec%20World%20Ch%201.htm

Let us observe the epicanthus a moment‑the most typical trait of Mongoloid faces; it clearly indicates its Asiatic provenance and does not offer any special problem. But at the same time let us remember that it has often been said that the colossal heads represent a Negroid type; this would indicate the presence of true Negroes who reached the Gulf Coast" This migration is improbable though not impossible," and even more improbable is the combination of the epicanthus with Negroid faces. The combination is frequently found in Olmec figures which are not men but children, and which form one of the basic themes of Olmec art.

Ignacio Bernal’s resume.

Now, maybe you wanna nitpick that I should have qualified my statement more, but I’m blessed if I know how I can get much more non-specific than, “they have a distinctly Negroid look”. Should I have said, “Some people think that they have a distinctly Negroid look”? Well, you are certainly welcome to nitpick all you like–it’s a free country.

There’s a time and a place to call people on their racist statements, and babe, this ain’t one of them.

[system]

Good lord DDG, it was a turn of phrase, “if you learned nothing” is just an expression! I wasn’t accusing you of having learned nothing (or that was not in my mind when I used the phrase).

You’ve buried me in googleness! I understood, perhaps wrongly, the a part of this discussion to be of how Olmec monumental statuary morphologies might reflect African descent. So, the somewhat throwaway comment – for which you and sofaking have rightly spanked me-- followed.

I will only note that your links make the only and very point I was trying to make. Feebly and not well.

Of course, in re the actual piece of art, it looks rather like a fat mouse to me.

mea culpa, mea culpa mea maxima culpa.

[squeegee]

Hmmm, spending s’more time overanalyzing this Oliphant:

I’d initially taken the ‘animal’ to be standing on all fours (tho’ perhaps others didn’t), but at second look it appears that the ‘nipple’ centered under the head is a limb, and looking closely there’s another one visible under the ‘chin’. All of which might indicate a standing posture.

Okay, so it’s standing. So it’s got a really really big posterior. No idea what this means, but it doesn’t look any more ‘elephant-like’ to me either way. Your basic fertility-thing would have a big belly, not a big, well, you know. Hmmph.

OTOH, maybe this thing keeps it’s nipples (and quite wicked looking they are) right below the neck and above the first set of limbs. Oookay.

The ‘tail’ is also interesting: something clearly busted off the top at some point, which might have indicated what the object was for if it were still present.

It’d be interesting to see this thing from another angle (too bad the museum hid it away. Yeeaaah, right).

I still say it’s a rotund mouse. Or solenodon.

[squeegee]

Or maybe its babar.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Okay.