# Can we end up with another "Jimmy Carter"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346 "2008-09-06T15:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/41 "2008-09-29T05:18:34Z")
One thing about coattails, Obama has had long coattails ever since he gave that speech back in 2004. He has been stumping for candidates all over the nation, using his rock star status to help many, many democrats campaign and get elected. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/42 "2008-09-29T07:34:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A sandstorm in the desert - gee, what are the odds? > > I think Obama is in for a nasty surprise if he thinks winning the election and having a Democratic Congress means he can enact his agenda with no problems. Congress is already controlled by Dems - he isn’t going to get any credit for coattails. And they can’t get anything done anyway, except grow the deficit. > > This is one of Obama’s weaknesses, and one that won’t go away just because all the lefties are in denial about it. He has no experience running anything but his mouth, and you don’t pass a legislative agenda with nice speeches. He hasn’t been part of the Washington scene long enough to form any strong alliances or to get a real feel for how to shepherd laws thru. And nobody is beholden enough to him, and he is not an experienced enough leader, that anyone will fall in line behind his ideas (such as they are) just because the Obamaniacs want them to. > > They’ll raises taxes, and then jack up spending even more. We are already hovering on the edge or already in recession, and this will make it much worse. Can anyone say ‘stagflation’? Or he will fuck up the benefits of the surge in Iraq (or do something stupid in Afghanistan) and all the screams that “BUSHLIEDBUSHLIEDBUSHLIEDBUSHLIED!!!” in the world will not change the fact that things were [things were improving](http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/) because of a strategy that he opposed, and started downhill once he tried his own ideas. > > His best chance is to back off from the kind of socialism lite that he claimed to support in the primaries and govern as a moderate. That means working _against_ the far left in Congress and compromising. The media won’t call him on any of the promises he would have to break, so he has a chance to get away with it. Whether he has the political insight to see that it is necessary, and the backbone to follow thru, remains to be seen. > > Regards, > Shodan Obama wants to raise taxes and end the war. McCain wants to lower taxes and stay at war. Which candidate is going to bankrupt the government, again? I can’t even see how you’re convincing yourself of this nonsense, let alone any sort of arguments legitimately supporting your conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/43 "2008-09-29T10:28:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A sandstorm in the desert - gee, what are the odds? > (snippage) > Regards, > Shodan ``` I find your beer unique, but could you back off the gas valve? Too much foam. ``` Cheers, Carson O’Genial ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/44 "2008-09-29T10:52:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > His best chance is to back off from the kind of socialism lite that he claimed to support in the primaries and govern as a moderate. That means working _against_ the far left in Congress and compromising. The media won’t call him on any of the promises he would have to break, so he has a chance to get away with it. Whether he has the political insight to see that it is necessary, and the backbone to follow thru, remains to be seen. Huh. You’ve given up on advising us what Democrats need to do to win elections, and are now advising us on what Democrats need to do to govern? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Booker\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71c47a/32.png) [@Happy\_Booker\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Booker_1)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/45 "2008-09-29T11:01:58Z")
Carter didn’t believe in the political process. Rationality? Yes. Trading competing interests? Why do that? I’ve admired his post-Presidential life, but he was illustrative of the dangers of electing a non-politician to the political job. There’s no danger that either candidate falls into the category of “non-politician”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/46 "2008-09-29T13:22:03Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Huh. You’ve given up on advising us what Democrats need to do to win elections, and are now advising us on what Democrats need to do to govern? > > Thanks. You’re welcome. I am responding to the OP. You might want to try the same. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/47 "2008-09-29T13:54:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As I recall, the knock on him for the failed hostage attempt is that one of the reasons it failed was that it was being micro-managed from the White House, with Carter demanding approval on every step along the way. This caused a lot of confusion on the ground, which contributed to the mission being messed up. I’ve never heard this. Frankly, it sounds like a made up partisan swipe. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/48 "2008-09-29T14:42:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A sandstorm in the desert - gee, what are the odds? > > I think Obama is in for a nasty surprise if he thinks winning the election and having a Democratic Congress means he can enact his agenda with no problems. Congress is already controlled by Dems - he isn’t going to get any credit for coattails. And they can’t get anything done anyway, except grow the deficit. > > This is one of Obama’s weaknesses, and one that won’t go away just because all the lefties are in denial about it. He has no experience running anything but his mouth, and you don’t pass a legislative agenda with nice speeches. He hasn’t been part of the Washington scene long enough to form any strong alliances or to get a real feel for how to shepherd laws thru. And nobody is beholden enough to him, and he is not an experienced enough leader, that anyone will fall in line behind his ideas (such as they are) just because the Obamaniacs want them to. > > They’ll raises taxes, and then jack up spending even more. We are already hovering on the edge or already in recession, and this will make it much worse. Can anyone say ‘stagflation’? Or he will fuck up the benefits of the surge in Iraq (or do something stupid in Afghanistan) and all the screams that “BUSHLIEDBUSHLIEDBUSHLIEDBUSHLIED!!!” in the world will not change the fact that things were [things were improving](http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/) because of a strategy that he opposed, and started downhill once he tried his own ideas. > > His best chance is to back off from the kind of socialism lite that he claimed to support in the primaries and govern as a moderate. That means working _against_ the far left in Congress and compromising. The media won’t call him on any of the promises he would have to break, so he has a chance to get away with it. Whether he has the political insight to see that it is necessary, and the backbone to follow thru, remains to be seen. > > Regards, > Shodan It would be impossible to spend more than the "fiscally responsible " looters of the treasury that have been in the last 2 terms. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/49 "2008-09-29T15:06:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’ve never heard this. Frankly, it sounds like a made up partisan swipe. [It itsn’t.](http://books.google.com/books?id=Zscghb2szdAC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=Carter+hostage+rescue+micromanage&source=web&ots=T4rel0lcMP&sig=z3J_MUc1IOdqmICqsMx0eWJd0Wg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/50 "2008-09-29T15:36:10Z")
No doubt Carter had an impeccable grasp of the details of the rescue operation, and was involved in planning it, but nothing in your cite remotely comes close to supporting Sam Stone’s statement: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > As I recall, the knock on him for the failed hostage attempt is that one of the reasons it failed was that it was being micro-managed from the White House, with Carter demanding approval on every step along the way. This caused a lot of confusion on the ground, which contributed to the mission being messed up. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/51 "2008-09-29T16:06:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [It itsn’t.](http://books.google.com/books?id=Zscghb2szdAC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=Carter+hostage+rescue+micromanage&source=web&ots=T4rel0lcMP&sig=z3J_MUc1IOdqmICqsMx0eWJd0Wg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result) > > Regards, > Shodan Like **treis** pointed out, your cite is a criticism of management style and has nothing of merit to indicate that the rescue mission failed because of Carter’s involvement. I can only read so much of your cite, but I did get a tone of nastiness from it. So Clinton and Carter wanted all available info before making a decision. Their critics label that as indecision. Well, recent history has shown that a dogmatic, shoot from the hip, don’t confuse me with the facts, management style is far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/52 "2008-09-29T17:24:24Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > Like **treis** pointed out, your cite is a criticism of management style and has nothing of merit to indicate that the rescue mission failed because of Carter’s involvement. Well, sure, you can call micro-management and paralysis by detail a “management style” if you like. Didn’t seem to work out too terribly well for Mr. Peanut, though. Not sure if Obama would turn out to be that kind of a failure, just a different kind. Carter thought being President was like being governor of Georgia, only more so. And he got bogged down in minutiae mostly as a result of that. Also because managing the tennis courts was all that he could actually seem to affect. He went on TV and put on a sweater, and still the energy crisis didn’t go away. He issued a whole bunch of increasing detailed orders, and still the rescue operation failed. He scolded the American people about not being more cheerful about the economy, and still the misery index went up. Obama doesn’t even have that much experience to draw on. I get the feeling that he will expect to be swept into office, send a whole bunch of legislation to Congress, and expect them to be passed immediately and all our problems go away. Which is naive, but what do you expect from someone like that? It’s just hard on the country when our Chief Executive’s first encounter with political reality comes in the Oval Office. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/53 "2008-09-29T17:28:44Z")
If Palin gets in ,we would have another outsider with the attitude that she can fix all the ills with her deep knowledge of things religious and Alaskan. Washington would crush her. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/54 "2008-09-29T17:31:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, sure, you can call micro-management and paralysis by detail a “management style” if you like. Didn’t seem to work out too terribly well for Mr. Peanut, though. However, until you can pony up a cite indicating micromanaging as a cause for the failure of the rescue operation this particular train of thought is nothing more than a load of shit. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/55 "2008-09-29T17:33:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, sure, you can call micro-management and paralysis by detail a “management style” if you like. Didn’t seem to work out too terribly well for Mr. Peanut, though. > > Not sure if Obama would turn out to be that kind of a failure, just a different kind. Carter thought being President was like being governor of Georgia, only more so. And he got bogged down in minutiae mostly as a result of that. > > Also because managing the tennis courts was all that he could actually seem to affect. He went on TV and put on a sweater, and still the energy crisis didn’t go away. He issued a whole bunch of increasing detailed orders, and still the rescue operation failed. He scolded the American people about not being more cheerful about the economy, and still the misery index went up. > > Obama doesn’t even have that much experience to draw on. I get the feeling that he will expect to be swept into office, send a whole bunch of legislation to Congress, and expect them to be passed immediately and all our problems go away. > > Which is naive, but what do you expect from someone like that? > > It’s just hard on the country when our Chief Executive’s first encounter with political reality comes in the Oval Office. > > Regards, > Shodan Can I borrow your crystal ball? It’s quite presumptuous of you to go on like that. It’s also quite naive of you to think that a guy that has gone through as grueling of a campaign as he’s been through is naive about the political process. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/56 "2008-09-29T17:39:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [It itsn’t.](http://books.google.com/books?id=Zscghb2szdAC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=Carter+hostage+rescue+micromanage&source=web&ots=T4rel0lcMP&sig=z3J_MUc1IOdqmICqsMx0eWJd0Wg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result) I had heard the same thing but it just is not true. The mission was a cluster fuck to be sure but not because Carter was micromanaging from the White House. > [@](#): > > Late in the afternoon of April 24, eight RH-53D helicopters flew from the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz toward a remote landing site (really just a desert road) serving as an airstrip in the Great Salt Desert of Eastern Iran, near Tabas. Early the next morning six of the eight RH-53D helicopters met up with several waiting C-130 transport and refueling airplanes at the landing site and refueling area, designated “Desert One” by the mission. > > Of the two helicopters that did not make it to Desert One, one suffered avionics failures en route and returned to the USS Nimitz, and the other had an indication that one of its main rotor blades was fractured, and was abandoned in the desert en route to Desert One. Its crew was seen and retrieved by another helicopter that continued to Desert One. The helicopters maintained strict radio silence under orders for the entire flight, an issue which impacted their ability to maintain a cohesive flying unit while en route, as they all arrived separately and behind schedule. The strict radio silence also prevented them from requesting permission to fly above the sandstorm as the C-130s had done, and they flew the entire route at hazardous low levels, even while inside the sandstorm and with limited field of vision and erratic instrumentation. > > The mission plan called for a minimum of six helicopters but of the six that made it to Desert One, one had a failed primary hydraulics system and had flown on the secondary hydraulics system for the previous four hours. > > The failing helicopter’s crew wanted to continue, but due to the increased risk of not having a backup hydraulic system during flight, the helicopter squadron’s commander decided to ground the helicopter. The Delta commander, Col. Beckwith, then recommended the mission be aborted and his recommendation was approved, President Carter being the commander of the mission. As the helicopters repositioned themselves for refueling, one helicopter landed on top of a C-130 tanker aircraft and crashed, killing eight U.S. servicemen and injuring several more. > > SOURCE: [Iran hostage crisis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis#Rescue_attempts) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/57 "2008-09-29T18:02:09Z")
But the point is being missed. Carter encouraged us to lower our thermostats and put on sweaters to save energy. Such a policy works. As does Obama’s statement re inflating your tires–it’s something everyone can do, conserves gas and is simple and easily done. Why these things are mocked by Reps (and McCain re the tires) escapes me. If they were the ONLY things these men suggested or backed in terms of energy policy, I’d tend to look at them funny. But they’re not. To point to a different area, the duct tape and plastic sheeting sure didn’t make me sleep better o’ nights… but of course, we have this great big war in a country that was our ally due to the dictator we helped into power and now hates us, plus I can’t retire until I’m 75 or so now because my IRA is more like a piggy bank, so that makes me sleep much, much better. Carter has been a brilliant ex-President. I think he should have been a pastor or a theologian. He’s one of the few religious people I can stand to listen to–he tends to walk the walk. I was a kid when he was President. Mostly what I remember is the energy crisis, OPEC and Jimmy Beer. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/58 "2008-09-29T18:32:54Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > It’s quite presumptuous of you to go on like that. It’s also quite naive of you to think that a guy that has gone through as grueling of a campaign as he’s been through is naive about the political process. So anyone who has gone thru a grueling campaign is qualified to understand the legislative process? Interesting point, but a bit incoherent. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > had heard the same thing but it just is not true. The mission was a cluster fuck to be sure but not because Carter was micromanaging from the White House. _:shrugs:_ Read the cites. Even the decision to abort had to be relayed back to Washingon. Carter wanted to know if the perimeter guards at the embassy were recruits or volunteers. If they were volunteers, he was willing to kill them. If they were recruits, he wanted them to be knocked out. > [@](#): > > One thing President Carter had insisted on was the option of calling off the raid right up to the last minute: right before they were to storm the embassy walls > [@](#): > > Another presidential directive concerned the use of nonlethal riot-control agents. Given that the shah’s occasionally violent riot control during the revolution was now Exhibit A in Iran’s human-rights case against the former regime and America, Carter wanted to avoid killing Iranians, so he had insisted that if a hostile crowd formed during the raid, Delta should attempt to control it without shooting people. Burruss considered this ridiculous. He and his men were going to assault a guarded compound in the middle of a city of more than 5 million people, most of them presumed to be aggressively hostile. It was unbelievably risky; everyone on the mission knew there was a very good chance they would not get home alive. Wade Ishmoto, a Delta captain who worked with the unit’s intelligence division, had joked, “The only difference between this and the Alamo is that Davy Crockett didn’t have to fight his way in.” And Carter had the idea that this vastly outnumbered force was first going to try holding off the city with nonviolent crowd control? Burruss understood the president’s thinking on this, but with their hides so nakedly on the line, shouldn’t they be free to decide how best to defend themselves? He had complained about the directive to General Jones, who had said he would look into it, but the answer had come back “No, the president insists.” > [@](#): > > The question of what to do with the passengers was relayed all the way to the White House. [Cite](http://iran.theatlantic.com/interactive_article_page_3.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/59 "2008-09-29T18:39:46Z")
Like I said, all a load of shit until you come up with something that even hints at the operation being a failure due to micromanagemnet. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346/60 "2008-09-29T19:06:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So anyone who has gone thru a grueling campaign is qualified to understand the legislative process? Interesting point, but a bit incoherent. _:shrugs:_ > > Read the cites. Even the decision to abort had to be relayed back to Washingon. Carter wanted to know if the perimeter guards at the embassy were recruits or volunteers. If they were volunteers, he was willing to kill them. If they were recruits, he wanted them to be knocked out. > [Cite](http://iran.theatlantic.com/interactive_article_page_3.html). The mission did not fail due to any of that. Read my cite above. Had they made it to the embassy and it all went south while they tried to knock out guards instead of killing them or somesuch then you might have something. As it was the thing went south due to a string of unfortunate occurrences (helicopters breaking down/malfunctioning, radio silence, sand storm, helicopter landing on a plane, etc.). Carter had nothing to do with any of all that except to approve the cancellation of the mission by a request from the commander on the ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-end-up-with-another-jimmy-carter/462346.md?page=4)