# Can we get rid of "retard" next? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 20, 2022, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755 "2022-05-20T11:27:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/402 "2022-05-24T00:46:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > referring to various people as chimps, say > [@Riemann](#): > > That’s not the issue, because nobody thinks that calling somebody a chimpanzee is to be taken _literally_ , so it’s not dehumanizing. I was thinking about non-human animals in general, and this specific one is of course a terrible example of what I was getting at. There _is_ a sordid history of comparing Black people to non-human primates in a literal or semi-literal manner. That is straightforward direct dehumanization of the person you’re insulting. But that kind of direct dehumanization is not what we are trying to elucidate in this thread. Here it’s not a question of whether the person you’re insulating is directly harmed, but whether the archetype that you reference in your metaphor is indirectly harmed. Calling someone a stupid ass (donkey) would be a better example of a non-harmful metaphor. If I call you a stupid ass, you would not take it literally, so you are not dehumanized. And asses (the archetype for stupidity in the metaphor) are not harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/403 "2022-05-24T01:31:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I really think the major issue is that using “retard” as an insult to neurotypical people who do something thoughtles The thing is, “retard” isn’t really (outside a gaming context) used just to denote someone being thoughtless. “Stupid” or “idiotic” cover that pretty well for the most part. It requires an additional element of almost aggravatedly stupid. You know that meme where someone’s riding their bike, puts a large stick between the spokes of the wheel, crashes the bike, hurts themselves, and is surprised that happened? _That’s_ the sort of thing that might be considered “retarded” - it’s such an obvious outcome to nearly everyone (The stick stopping the wheel turning and causing the bike to crash, resulting in potential injury) that it goes beyond merely being stupid and crosses into something warranting a much stronger descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/404 "2022-05-24T02:13:59Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing is No, that is not the thing. Do you understand and accept the explanations that have been given for why it is harmful to people with intellectual disability to make them a metaphorical archetype for extreme stupidity, and most especially with the pejorative term “retard”? If you still reject that, _that’s_ the thing we should talk about. If you do accept it, then surely “there is no other word in the English language that quite so perfectly expresses my meaning” does not come close to overriding the moral imperative to avoid collateral harm to a class of marginalized people. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/405 "2022-05-24T02:18:31Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It requires an additional element of almost aggravatedly stupid. If you think that makes it better, you’re _really_ not understanding what folks are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/406 "2022-05-24T02:25:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If you still reject that, _that’s_ the thing we should talk about. Talk about to understand why I feel that way? I don’t think anyone here actually cares or genuinely wants to understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/407 "2022-05-24T02:54:43Z")
Well, I guess that depends. I would like to understand whether you just don’t agree that anyone is harmed by the use of the word, or if you agree that there is harm but think some other consideration is more important. If it’s the latter and it’s no more than some version of the slippery slope of the English language not having any words left argument, you are right that it is likely to get short shrift. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/408 "2022-05-24T03:12:50Z")
It’s more the former than the latter, but I also think this is one of those issues where there’s nothing anyone on either side can say to change the other’s position on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/409 "2022-05-24T03:35:49Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > You know that meme where someone’s riding their bike, puts a large stick between the spokes of the wheel, crashes the bike, hurts themselves, and is surprised that happened? _That’s_ the sort of thing that might be considered “retarded” - it’s such an obvious outcome to nearly everyone (The stick stopping the wheel turning and causing the bike to crash, resulting in potential injury) that it goes beyond merely being stupid and crosses into something warranting a much stronger descriptor. So then you go to, “This person must be so foolish and irresponsible and worthy of ridicule that I will compare them to people who have developmental problems, because **those** people are foolish and irresponsible and worthy of ridicule.” And you think that’s okay? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/410 "2022-05-24T08:03:23Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It’s more the former than the latter, but I also think this is one of those issues where there’s nothing anyone on either side can say to change the other’s position on the subject. You’re wrong. I learned sometime within the last ten years why this was wrong. Someone explained it to me clearly, and i realized that certain phrases i had been using were offensive. So i (mostly, because people are creatures of habit) stopped using them. (Checking forum. Skipping next sentiment) You, too, could step back and consider the collateral damage you might be doing. If you do that, i believe you will realize that common courtesy is a solid guide. You would also realize that the euphemism treadmill is entirely irrelevant. That describes a problem in actually referring to people in marginalized groups. The problem of hurting those people by referring to them as shorthand to insult people not in those groups is completely separable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2022, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/411 "2022-05-24T13:22:39Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I also think this is one of those issues where there’s nothing anyone on either side can say to change the other’s position on the subject. Fortunately, it’s not your mind that needs to be changed. If we had to convince every poster of every rule, then we’d have no prohibitions on the n-word either, or any rules at all, really. You can think that the rule is as fucking stupid as putting a stick in your bicycle wheel, or even worse, an episode of Picard, but as long as you are not using it on this board, that’s all we ask. Think of it as an opportunity to be creative with your insults, rather than relying on imitating a bunch of immature, toxic teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/412 "2022-05-26T17:36:55Z")
Well, if anything, I learned to avoid using “crazy” as a casual pejorative. I’m pretty sure I use it as an intensifier, but I don’t _have_ to, so I’ll stop (not just on this board, but in life). I was already against using “lame” and “retarded” so no changes there for me, but another vote for recognizing their problematic nature. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/413 "2022-05-26T18:44:05Z")
Nice. I’ve tried to stop using “crazy,” but it’s really hard. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/414 "2022-05-26T22:09:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I’m pretty sure I use it as an intensifier, but I don’t _have_ to, so I’ll stop (not just on this board, but in life). I As an intensifier it is fine. I mean we do have “crazy good” , etc. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/415 "2022-05-26T23:05:08Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I learned to avoid using “crazy” as a casual pejorative. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > I’ve tried to stop using “crazy,” but it’s really hard. My intuition is that _crazy_ is nowhere near so problematic as _retard_, but intuition can be quite wrong, so… Using “retarded” to mean stupid: I don’t think stupid is the antonym of intelligent. When we call someone “stupid” we’re not usually describing where they lie on the distribution of intelligence. I think we’re usually saying something like - “Given your level of intelligence, how could you make such an elementary cognitive error on this specific issue?” In other words, stupidity means underperforming expectations. The threshold for what we would call “stupid” in a PhD student is quite different from a 10-year-old child. Thus it is _inaccurate_ to use intellectually disabled people as an archetype for stupidity, which makes the cruelty of doing so even more despicable. Does “crazy” follow this pattern? I’m uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/416 "2022-05-27T00:42:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Does “crazy” follow this pattern? I’m uncertain. In context, maybe. If you say that someone was “crazy” to have an extreme lapse in judgement, it is an inaccurate comparison because mental illness is not involved. > [@Riemann](#): > > My intuition is that _crazy_ is nowhere near so problematic as _retard_ , I have the same intuition and can’t articulate why, probably because I can’t rationalize it. It’s hard to explain something I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/417 "2022-05-27T03:16:00Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I have the same intuition and can’t articulate why, probably because I can’t rationalize it. It’s hard to explain something I don’t understand. Because “crazy” can be a Good thing. But Retard is not. _2. extremely enthusiastic._ _“I’m **crazy about** Cindy”_ > **[Definition of CRAZY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crazy)** > > not mentally sound : marked by thought or action that lacks reason : insane —not used technically; impractical; erratic… See the full definition \*cra·​zy | \ ˈkrā-zē \* _crazier; craziest_ _Definition of crazy (Entry 1 of 3)_ _1a: full of cracks or flaws : UNSOUND_ _… they were very crazy, wretched cabins …_ _— Charles Dickens_ _b: CROOKED, ASKEW_ _2a: not mentally sound : marked by thought or action that lacks reason : INSANE sense 1b_ _yelling like a crazy man_ _—not used technically_ _b(1): IMPRACTICAL_ _a crazy plan_ _(2): ERRATIC_ _crazy drivers_ _c: being out of the ordinary : UNUSUAL_ _a taste for crazy hats_ _3a: distracted with desire or excitement_ _a thrill-crazy mob_ _The fans went crazy when their team won the championship._ _b: absurdly fond : INFATUATED_ _He’s crazy about the girl._ _c: passionately preoccupied : OBSESSED_ _crazy about boats_ _like crazy_ _: to an extreme degree_ _everyone dancing like crazy_ _crazy noun_ _plural crazies_ _Definition of crazy (Entry 2 of 3)_ _: one who is or acts crazy_ _especially : such a one associated with a radical or extremist political cause_ _… are convinced that Wilson thinks they’re rubes, bumpkins, or crazies, and wants to replace them with a legislature full of moderate clones of himself._ _— Fred Barnes_ _crazy adverb_ _Definition of crazy (Entry 3 of 3)_ _: EXTREMELY, WILDLY_ _crazy good_ ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/418 "2022-05-27T03:20:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because “crazy” can be a Good thing. But Retard is not. Maybe, that seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/419 "2022-05-27T10:52:19Z")
> Crazy, I’m crazy for feeling so lonely > I’m crazy, crazy for feeling so blue > I knew you’d love me as long as you wanted > And then someday you’d leave me for somebody new ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/420 "2022-05-27T11:22:59Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And then someday you’d leave me for somebody new Heh. Who knew that new lover would be named “neuro-atypical.” ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755/421 "2022-05-28T15:52:35Z")
AFAIC, crazy (In Dutch, gek) is also to be used in instances of real craziness. Which I define as “no longer part of a shared reality”. I’ve caught some flak for it over the years, but being not only a psychiatrist but also suffering from mental illness myself, I think sometimes it’s useful. Simply because some behaviours and convictions will be deemed as crazy by the public, and I consider it my duty as a doctor to inform my patients of such. Retard, OTOH, is a different kettle of fish IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-get-rid-of-retard-next/964755.md?page=22)