# Can we go now? Iraq parties demand U.S. cede control **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211 "2006-03-28T05:21:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/1 "2006-03-28T05:21:35Z")
[http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-03-27T191932Z\_01\_L27605414\_RTRUKOC\_0\_UK-IRAQ.xml](http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-03-27T191932Z_01_L27605414_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ.xml) > [@](#): > > Iraq parties demand U.S. cede control > Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:20 PM GMT > > BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq’s ruling parties demanded U.S. forces cede control of security on Monday as the government launched an inquiry into a raid on a Shi’ite mosque that ministers said saw “cold blooded” killings by U.S.-led troops. > > As Shi’ite militiamen fulminated over Sunday’s deaths of 20 or more people in Baghdad, an al Qaeda-led group said it carried out one of the bloodiest Sunni insurgent attacks in months. A suicide bomber killed 40 Iraqi army recruits in northern Iraq. > > The Iraqi Defence Ministry said a suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt also wounded 30 at a base near Mosul. > > After a confusing 24 hours following the bloodshed around Baghdad’s Mustafa mosque in which the U.S. military restricted itself to issuing one somewhat opaque statement, U.S. officials distanced themselves from the operation, calling it Iraqi-led. > > Officials in Baghdad appeared to wait for input from Washington, underlining the sensitivity of the confrontation between Iraq’s Iranian-linked Shi’ite Islamist leaders and the U.S. forces at a time when Washington is pressing them to forge a unity government with minority Sunnis to avert civil war. > > A day later, three broad versions of the events that led to the deaths of some 20 – or possibly more – people persisted. > > Iraq’s security minister accused U.S. and Iraqi forces of killing 37 unarmed civilians in the mosque after tying them up. > > Residents and police, who put the death toll among the troops’ opponents at around 20, spoke of a fierce battle between the soldiers and gunmen from the Mehdi Army militia of Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, whose followers ran the mosque. > > And U.S. officials, finally confirming they were describing the same incident, stuck by a statement saying Iraqi special forces, advised by U.S. troops, killed 16 “insurgents” who fired on them first. They also insisted no troops entered any mosque and had freed an Iraqi being held prisoner. > > … > > One thing was certain: Shi’ite leaders were up in arms against the U.S. forces who effectively brought them to power by overthrowing Saddam Hussein’s Sunni-dominated Baathist regime. > > “The Alliance calls for a rapid restoration of (control of) security matters to the Iraqi government,” Jawad al-Maliki, a senior spokesman of the Shi’ite Islamist Alliance and ally of Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, told a news conference. > > The United States handed over formal sovereignty in 2004 but 133,000 troops in the country give it the main say in security. > > Government-run television repeated lengthy footage of the bodies of men in civilian clothes with no weapons in sight. > > Baghdad provincial governor Hussein al-Tahan said he would halt all cooperation with U.S. forces. > > Aides to Sadr denied any Mehdi Army fighters were present. > > But witnesses spoke of a lengthy gun battle: “The shooting lasted for more than an hour,” shopkeeper Ali Abdul Jabbar said. > > SADR > > The fiery young cleric’s militia was ordered to disband after U.S. forces crushed uprisings in 2004. But it remains a force in southern Iraq and eastern Baghdad, and is accused by U.S. officials of some of the violence that killed hundreds of Sunnis after last month’s bombing of a Shi’ite shrine. > > Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, at the centre of urgent U.S. efforts to stem violence by creating a unity government, has said in recent days that the militias must be brought to heel and accused Iran of funding and training some armed groups. He said militias are now killing more Iraqis than the insurgents. > > Khalilzad plans ground-breaking talks with Iran to try to break the deadlock over the formation of a unity government. I thought the Shiites were going to be tired of the American presence much later, since I thought the Shiites were one of the factions more in favor of our presence, but I figured out a long time ago that the longer the US stays, then it was more likely that even the Shiites would think that our stay had more to do with colonialism than Nation building. Has this alleged massacre the item that will turn the Shiites against us, sooner rather than later? What is Iran doing here being part of the negotiations? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/2 "2006-03-28T05:32:23Z")
If they asked us to go we should pack up and get…IMHO. They being the elected government of Iraq. Lets get the hell out if thats what they want…I’m thinking it would be for the best (for us anyway). -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/3 "2006-03-28T06:17:16Z")
Sorry, but it’s got to be from the government (which hasn’t formed yet), not just “some Shiites”. And it doesn’t surprise me that the tide is turning. The ISF is making some good progress, but it’s largely controlled by the Shiites. It’ll be the Sunnis that beg us to stay, if they’re smart. If we’re outta there too soon, Abu Ghraib will look like a picnic compared to what the Shiites will do. Iran doesn’t want a destabilized Iraq any more than we do, btw. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/4 "2006-03-28T06:37:56Z")
We can’t leave. We have to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here. And we’ve turned a corner! Not to mention the rent we’ve already paid on those “enduring bases” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/5 "2006-03-28T06:50:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Sorry, but it’s got to be from the government (which hasn’t formed yet), not just “some Shiites”. And it doesn’t surprise me that the tide is turning. The ISF is making some good progress, but it’s largely controlled by the Shiites. It’ll be the Sunnis that beg us to stay, if they’re smart. If we’re outta there too soon, Abu Ghraib will look like a picnic compared to what the Shiites will do. > > Iran doesn’t want a destabilized Iraq any more than we do, btw. 😕 I would not see “Ruling parties” and “Shi’ite leaders” as “some Shiites” I think the report is dealing with what is pragmatically happening on the ground, we would like to hear that from the new government, but they themselves are not willing to form it, unless… Well, I’m afraid either the Iraqis are going to get some deals that many Americans are not going to like, or we are going to force some actions that will turn also the Shiites against the US and the UK. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/6 "2006-03-28T08:51:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What is Iran doing here being part of the negotiations? 😕 They are the victors of GW 2 so of course they need to be there. I expect they’ll be delivering flowers, chocolates and a big thankyou to the USA/UK for handing them such a massive strategic victory. I wonder if they have the equivalent of Freedom Medals for the poodle and the chimp? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/7 "2006-03-28T11:01:50Z")
Is is possible to land helicopters on the Baghdad US Embassy roof? 😛😛😛 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/8 "2006-03-28T11:15:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is is possible to land helicopters on the Baghdad US Embassy roof? > > 😛😛😛 Well - one lesson has been learned from Vietnam. We have a whole giant ‘green zone’ to land plenty of choppers in and those blackhawks can carry a whole lot more people. On the plus side - i’m looking forward to having a whole lot more good Middle-Eastern restaurants to go to once the fleeing collaborators and their families find their feet. And when it happens the Usual Suspects will be on the board here claiming with a straight face that the broadening of the restaurant trade was Bush’s plan all along. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/9 "2006-03-28T14:21:13Z")
Welcome to the topsy-turvy world of Iraq, where we don’t even know what side we’re on anymore. The government, such as it is, draws much of its support from its Shi’ite populist base. If we lose them, whose side are we on – the insurgents’? Actually, it’s pretty clear that our interests _are_ most closely aligned with those of the ex-Baathist Sunnis. It’s just a matter of time before it comes into the open. Of course, our problem with those guys is that we still need to string Saddam up by his heels. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/10 "2006-03-28T14:32:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well - one lesson has been learned from Vietnam. We have a whole giant ‘green zone’ to land plenty of choppers in and those blackhawks can carry a whole lot more people. Yeah but … the big problem with retreats is that in the end there is a shrinking area of control and a rear guard. It ultimately gets down to one block or one building and a small bunch of people who have to run like hell. And that’s the scenario for a well run retreat. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/11 "2006-03-28T14:44:28Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Yeah but … the big problem with retreats is that in the end there is a shrinking area of control and a rear guard. It ultimately gets down to one block or one building and a small bunch of people who have to run like hell. > > And that’s the scenario for a well run retreat. “Guard this here gate Abdul. We’ll be back for you and your family in just a minute.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/12 "2006-03-28T14:50:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What is Iran doing here being part of the negotiations? 😕 Well, what happens in a turbulent country on their border certainly is their business. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/13 "2006-03-28T15:50:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Sorry, but it’s got to be from the government (which hasn’t formed yet), not just “some Shiites”. And it doesn’t surprise me that the tide is turning. The ISF is making some good progress, but it’s largely controlled by the Shiites. It’ll be the Sunnis that beg us to stay, if they’re smart. If we’re outta there too soon, Abu Ghraib will look like a picnic compared to what the Shiites will do. No John. I had the same initial thought (that it needs to be the government that asks us formally to leave) but that just doesn’t wash. This is so obviously a trumped up and excuse to get us to leave, and its coming from the movers and shakers (appearently) on the Shi’ite side. No, its time for us to begin withdrawl and bring the boys and girls home. Of course, even if we start today it will take several months. But I think we should start today. I shudder to think what will happen to Iraq once we are gone. Its going to be ugly in the extreme. All those in this thread joking about helicopters and making veiled (and to my mind gleeful) Vietnam references…well, I wonder if they fully realize whats going to happen. Ah well, maybe they do and this is their version of gallows humor. Myself…I’m just sad. That said: lets get our troops the fuck out of Iraq…RIGHT NOW! -XT ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/14 "2006-03-28T16:11:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No John. I had the same initial thought (that it needs to be the government that asks us formally to leave) but that just doesn’t wash. This is so obviously a trumped up and excuse to get us to leave, and its coming from the movers and shakers (appearently) on the Shi’ite side. No, its time for us to begin withdrawl and bring the boys and girls home. Of course, even if we start today it will take several months. But I think we should start today. > > I shudder to think what will happen to Iraq once we are gone. Its going to be ugly in the extreme. All those in this thread joking about helicopters and making veiled (and to my mind gleeful) Vietnam references…well, I wonder if they fully realize whats going to happen. Ah well, maybe they do and this is their version of gallows humor. Myself…I’m just sad. > > That said: lets get our troops the fuck out of Iraq…RIGHT NOW! > > -XT Yes we do realise - that’s why we were opposed to it in the first damn place. Staying will make it worse. And if the only humour on offer is black I’ll take it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/15 "2006-03-28T16:19:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > All those in this thread joking about helicopters and making veiled (and to my mind gleeful) Vietnam references…well, I wonder if they fully realize whats going to happen. Ah well, maybe they do and this is their version of gallows humor. Myself…I’m just sad. Some of us have been predicting a Viet Nam like ending for the last three years and have been regularly berated for it. Just pigeons coming home to roost. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/16 "2006-03-28T16:20:00Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Yes we do realise - that’s why we were opposed to it in the first damn place. Staying will make it worse. > > And if the only humour on offer is black I’ll take it. And hubris is pretty much always funny. Don’t blame us - blame the clowns that put the troops there and the people that cheered them on in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/17 "2006-03-28T16:22:03Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Yes we do realise - that’s why we were opposed to it in the first damn place. Staying will make it worse. Then your (collective) powers of prediction are astounding…certainly better than my own humble efforts. I don’t agree that our leaving will make things better…but perhaps I am misreading again. If you feel better you were right…I was wrong. Dead wrong. > [@tagos](#): > > And if the only humour on offer is black I’ll take it. I figured as much. I don’t think anyone, no matter how much this makes their political rivals look bad, could be happy at the prospect of what will probably happen to Iraq when the US pulls out completely. As I said, even knowing that, I think its time…time to begin our withdrawl with an eye to being out of there completely (even if our rent IS paid on those bases) by no later than the end of the year…preferably before then. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/18 "2006-03-28T16:27:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Then your (collective) powers of prediction are astounding…certainly better than my own humble efforts. I don’t agree that our leaving will make things better…but perhaps I am misreading again. If you feel better you were right…I was wrong. Dead wrong. > > I figured as much. I don’t think anyone, no matter how much this makes their political rivals look bad, could be happy at the prospect of what will probably happen to Iraq when the US pulls out completely. > > As I said, even knowing that, I think its time…time to begin our withdrawl with an eye to being out of there completely (even if our rent IS paid on those bases) by no later than the end of the year…preferably before then. > > -XT Well, no-one is happy about it but that’s what black humour is for. And as impeachement isn’t on the cards mockery is all we have. The trouble is it didn’t take a crystal ball to know this venture was doomed. Bush et al just chose to ignore the warnings. I’ve just finished reading Generation Kill and those marines, even as they were spearheading the assault, knew it was doomed before the war ended. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/19 "2006-03-28T16:29:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No John. I had the same initial thought (that it needs to be the government that asks us formally to leave) but that just doesn’t wash. This is so obviously a trumped up and excuse to get us to leave, and its coming from the movers and shakers (appearently) on the Shi’ite side. No, its time for us to begin withdrawl and bring the boys and girls home. Of course, even if we start today it will take several months. But I think we should start today. Doesn’t matter. Unless the government formally kicks us out, we need to do what’s in the best interest of the US. Now, that doesn’t mean I agree with Bush’s approach-- I don’t. I’ve been saying for over a year that we do need to set a timetable to get out. The ISF is being built up, finally, into a serviceable organization. Let’s give the Iraqis some incentive to accelerate the completion by telling them when we’re leaving. I don’t know exactly what that timetable should be, and I don’t know how many residual troops or advisors need to be left there longterm\*, but I think we should start bringing our guys and gals home now, and be largely out of there next year. \*again, assuming the Iraqis don’t kick us out completely ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211/20 "2006-03-28T16:57:36Z")
Observing all the teeth gnashing and wrist wringing going on here, I am positively worried for lives and limbs of many highly esteemed board members. Of course the real solution to the problem is electing Democrat POTUS. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-go-now-iraq-parties-demand-u-s-cede-control/350211.md?page=2)