# Can we have a dictionary, please? {about sealioning} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 20, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793 "2022-05-20T20:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/121 "2022-05-22T18:49:50Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I did add **Trock** to the glossary today. I believe I saw that in the Pit at some point and have made heavy use of it since. > > I should look for the earliest SDMB usage. > > ETA: Looks like it was first used on the SDMB December 2017. I’m reasonably sure it is quite a bit older, it seems like a obvious message board term once you see it. I’d think so too, but Wiktionary and Urban Dictionary have no entry that means troll-sock, although UD does have a few entries that contain the Trolling part of the portmanteau. And a google search for trock sock troll, or trock sock troll portmanteau doesn’t come up with any relevant hits. Okay, if you put “trock” in quotes I do get 4 pages of results, one of which is actually not from the SDMB-sphere and refers to a troll-sock, but that was from 2021. ---
**Author:** ![TwoCarrotSnowman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twocarrotsnowman/32/15879_2.png) [@TwoCarrotSnowman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoCarrotSnowman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/122 "2022-05-22T19:17:47Z")
This will only be of interest to my fellow Brits, but I every time I read that [cartoon about the the sea lion](http://wondermark.com/1k62/) I hear its voice as [Jacob Rees-Mogg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/123 "2022-05-22T19:24:09Z")
So it might actually have been coined on the Dope and not that long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/124 "2022-05-22T19:30:53Z")
> [@TwoCarrotSnowman](#): > > I hear its voice as [Jacob Rees-Mogg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg). His official position is “Minister of State for Brexit Opportunities and Government Efficiency”. Poe’s Law in government, reality sounds more like satire than actual satire, which only managed “Minster of State for Administrative Affairs”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/125 "2022-05-22T20:31:54Z")
My main issue with the comic is that the woman comes off as a bigot. Because it is a species she doesn’t like, it’s much easier to equate that with a race, ethnicity, or something else about who the person is, not how they act. And it’s no longer automatic to assume that the traits of an individual correspond to the group as a whole, so it didn’t occur to me at least that all sealions act the same way this guy did. Someone up above replacing sealion with Korean was so close, but then they made it about not knowing why Koreans are bad, rather than the fact it made the person a bigot. And, at that point, the sealion becomes someone who was at least initially justified in pushing that person to state their bigotry out loud. Another lesser issue is that sealioning never really involves people talking among themselves and a stranger interjecting themselves into the conversation. These were always conversations in public made for public consumption. And, yes, if you say something disparaging about someone in public, there is at least the idea that said person should be able to confront you. While the persistent nature and insistence that harassing someone is “polite” was obvious from the comic, I had to have the rest of it explained to me to figure out exactly what was being alleged. The disingenuousness of the question wasn’t clear to me. That’s not to blame the comic: it wasn’t intended to create a new term after all. It was a comic made at a specific time with a specific context. People had much more familiarity with the tactics of the people represented by “sealion,” and understood it. But I do tend to think that it’s better to give a definition of sealioning first and then show the comic as part of explaining the origin. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/126 "2022-05-22T20:49:11Z")
Once again, I think this is another example of hugely overthinking the intent of a simple comic. I simply see it as a depiction of the fact that there exists on the internet a species of poster who is willfully obnoxious and whose primary intent is to be annoying and to rile people up – i.e.- essentially a classic troll – but one that has refined the special technique of cloaking the trolling in an affected veneer of civility in order to avoid detection. Sea-lioning is mainly identifiable by unrelenting persistence in the demand for cites and explanations even when they’ve been provided numerous times, thereby disrupting the discussion among legitimate posters. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/127 "2022-05-22T20:49:13Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I like your list of key characteristics, but it seems to me that the first two things on your list are pretty much the _definition_ of bad faith, and bad faith is an element in _all_ the things on your list. What I’m pointing out is that bad-faith _questions_ are not the _sine qua non_ of sealioning. It could be questioning, or it could be a tempting bait topic that begs for correction. For example, if one states that one isn’t a racist, and then lays out a meticulously rationalized set of racist beliefs, and offers to debate them civilly and exhaustively, one can attract endless attention to himself like flies to honey. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/128 "2022-05-22T20:59:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And I’d say that it’s quite evident that the sealion knows that it is exactly the behavior it is exhibiting that one could do without. Hence the disingenuousness of its questions. Remember, that cartoon was not meant to be an example of the behavior we call sealioning. The term comes from that cartoon, but the behavior existed before. It is a good, fun cartoon, sure and it is the trope-namer, but let us not take it literally as an example of the internet sealioning behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/129 "2022-05-22T21:21:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Remember, that cartoon was not meant to be an example of the behavior we call sealioning. The term comes from that cartoon, but the behavior existed before. > > It is a good, fun cartoon, sure and it is the trope-namer, but let us not take it literally as an example of the internet sealioning behavior That’s got nothing to do with what @k9bfriender said. It is true that the cartoon was not meant to describe a named behavior. It is also true that the behavior the sea lion exhibits is exactly why the speaker dislikes sea lions. No other interpretation makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/130 "2022-05-22T21:26:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Behold! The Monitor of these Hallowed Halls has granted us a quest! Excellent! I’ll bring the fishhooks and the very large net. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/131 "2022-05-22T21:55:34Z")
Has anyone bothered to read David Malki’s clarification of the cartoon on the Wondermark site? > [**#1062; The Terrible Sea Lion**](http://wondermark.com/1k62/) > It has been suggested that the couple in this comic, and the woman in particular, are bigots for making a pejorative statement about a species of animal, and then refusing to justify their statements. It has been further suggested that they be read as overly privileged, because they are dressed fancily, have a house, a motor-car, etc. This is, I suppose, a valid read of the comic, if taken as written. > > But often, in satire such as this, elements are employed to stand in for other, different objects or concepts. Using animals for this purpose has the effect of allowing the point (which usually is about behavior) to stand unencumbered by the connotations that might be suggested if a person is portrayed in that role — because all people are members of some social group or other, even if said group identity is not germane to the point being made. > > Such is the case with this comic. The sea lion character is not meant to represent actual sea lions, or any actual animal. It is meant as a metaphorical stand-in for human beings that display certain behaviors. Since behaviors are the result of choice, I would assert that the woman’s objection to sea lions — which, if the metaphor is understood, is read as actually an objection to human beings who exhibit certain behaviors — is not analogous to a prejudice based on race, species, or other immutable characteristics. > > My apologies if the use of a metaphorical sea lion in this strip, rather than a human being making conscious choices about their own behavior, was in any way confusing. > > As for their attire: everyone in Wondermark dresses like that. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/132 "2022-05-22T22:35:12Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > No cow-orker? I first came across that one in a now defunct board back in the '90s. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/133 "2022-05-22T22:35:48Z")
We made it up, goddammit, even if we didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/134 "2022-05-22T22:51:47Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > I first came across that one in a now defunct board back in the '90s. Pretty sure Scott Adams mentioned the term in one of his Dilbert books back in the mid-1990s or so too, but I may be misremembering. It’s not a “new” term, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/135 "2022-05-22T23:11:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > David Malki’s clarification Thanks. So the author agrees with those of us who have commented that on its face the comic can easily be interpreted to mean something other than what he intended. And in exactly the way we noted - that the woman is bigoted against a class, rather than objecting to a pattern of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/136 "2022-05-22T23:32:13Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So the author agrees with those of us who have commented that on its face the comic can easily be interpreted to mean something other than what he intended. And in exactly the way we noted - that the woman is bigoted against a class, rather than objecting to a pattern of behavior. The author agrees - in the mildest way possible - that if you take the work at face value and completely ignore context, satire, and metaphor, then it is (he **supposes** ) a valid read of the comic. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/137 "2022-05-22T23:48:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > completely ignore… satire, and metaphor I can’t speak for others, but I’m fairly sure that nobody has proposed a non-satirical interpretation of a sea lion following people around their house pestering them. And “ignore” metaphor? Are you suggesting that someone is interpreting this comic as making a point about _actual_ sea lions? The point is that it can easily be interpreted as a metaphor for something else. When he wanted a metaphor for disliking a pattern of behavior rather than a metaphor for bigotry against a class of people, “I dislike sea lions” was at best an ambiguous choice, as he concedes. I think it was a poor choice. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > completely ignore context And here you’re making my point for me. A comic that requires context beyond common knowledge to understand the point it’s making is not an effective comic. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > in the mildest way possible The mildest way possible would be to _not_ write a long post apologizing for the fact that your comic is confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/138 "2022-05-23T00:01:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > In the middle of a discussion of the comic, I was accused of sealioning just because I framed the issue with the comic in the form of a couple of questions, by someone who had absolutely no reason to think I was being insincere. …I never accused you of sealioning. I never thought you were beng insincere. And you weren’t “framing the issue with the comic in the form of a couple of questions”: you were demanding that I defend an assertion that I never, ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/139 "2022-05-23T00:09:21Z")
I’m mean, people can read. I don’t particularly care whether it was technically an insinuation or an accusation, but it was amusingly ironic in context. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793/140 "2022-05-23T00:26:12Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m mean, people can read. I don’t particularly care whether it was technically an insinuation or an accusation, it was amusingly ironic in context. …people _can_ read. And they can see you demanding I defend an assertion that I never made. And they can see where I asked you this: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you do us all a favour and quote what it is that I said that you are actually disagreeing with, so I know what it is you are talking about? > > Thanks in advance. And you responded with this: > [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not going to search through the thread. If I have misundestood any of your posts, I apologize in advance. But I’ve made it quite clear what I think is in dispute here, so why not express your opinion on what I’ve asked? > > (1) Do you agree that disingenuousness, not just inappropriate persistence, is an essential element of the concept of sealioining? > > (2) Do you think the cartoon effectively portrays a disingenuous questioner, and if so how? I had no intention of jumping back into this thread, but your summary of our interactions was _imprecise_. Please stop doing that. Thanks in advance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-dictionary-please-about-sealioning/964793.md?page=8)