# Can we have a polite discussion about poverty, government, and free markets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339 "2012-09-10T22:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/21 "2012-09-11T02:33:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First one has to define “poverty”. The federal poverty level used by US government is just some arbitrary income figure. So if you have $1M in the bank, at 2% interest, thus your income is $20K/year, you’re under this poverty line. It also doesn’t take into account where the person lives, although $20K/year in NYC vs. $20K/year in Appalachia somewhere would result in two completely different standards of living. > > Same thing with the US Census Bureau’s poverty threshold levels. No accounting for wealth or geography. > > Relative poverty levels are something else - if you define the poverty level as bottom 10% of the population, then it becomes meaningless to talk about eliminating it, since there will always be the bottom 10%. > > Comparing poverty in different countries, even developed ones, is also an exercise in futility and often has no relation to reality - too many factors other than income levels are in play. > > And without a clear definition of “poverty”, how can you discuss it? There are all sorts of terms people don’t agree on clear definitions for. Abortion activists on both sides can’t even agree on the definition of “human.” Does that mean we can’t discuss it? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/22 "2012-09-11T02:41:34Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > There are all sorts of terms people don’t agree on clear definitions for. Abortion activists on both sides can’t even agree on the definition of “human.” Does that mean we can’t discuss it? Not at all. It just means we can’t discuss it _productively._ ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/23 "2012-09-11T02:42:17Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Not at all. It just means we can’t discuss it _productively._ I disagree. Just about everyone else does too, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/24 "2012-09-11T02:46:52Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I disagree. Just about everyone else does too, I imagine. OK. I do feel, though, that it opens the door for a hallowed privilege here on the SDMB: reducing any meaningful issue to a meaningless debate over definitions and hypotheticals. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/25 "2012-09-11T02:47:34Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > There are all sorts of terms people don’t agree on clear definitions for. Abortion activists on both sides can’t even agree on the definition of “human.” Does that mean we can’t discuss it? If you can’t even agree on what exactly you’re discussing, don’t expect much meaning from the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/26 "2012-09-11T02:51:23Z")
It was free market capitalism which made the USA so rich. So those same principals should be used again. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/27 "2012-09-11T02:53:10Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > It was free market capitalism which made the USA so rich. > > So those same principals should be used again. You don’t know a principal from a principle. And I’m not a bit surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/28 "2012-09-11T03:08:20Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > It was free market capitalism which made the USA so rich. > > So those same principals should be used again. It was the complete devastation of every major world economy in WW2 that made the USA so rich, and I don’t think those same principles should be used again. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/29 "2012-09-11T03:21:18Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In reality, anyone who’s read Milton Friedman’s books . . . [Oh, yes, about that Milton Friedman . . .](http://www.salon.com/2012/08/07/thank_you_milton_friedman/) ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/30 "2012-09-11T03:21:47Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > It was the complete devastation of every major world economy in WW2 that made the USA so rich, and I don’t think those same principles should be used again. LOL post of the year… ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/31 "2012-09-11T03:28:45Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > LOL post of the year… Why LOL? Why not PWNED? ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/32 "2012-09-11T03:40:39Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > It was the complete devastation of every major world economy in WW2 that made the USA so rich, and I don’t think those same principles should be used again. No. That is false. In 1913 the United States was the richest in the world per capita. This is before either of the World Wars began. Per capita income of the powers in 1913: United States = $377 Britain = $244 Germany = $184 France = $153 Italy = $108 Austria-Hungary = $57 Russia = $41 Japan = $36 SOURCE: The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy, page 243, table 21 ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/33 "2012-09-11T03:54:29Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Why LOL? Why not PWNED? you youngsters and your interweb speak… The USA has always had high per capita income, doesn’t mean that they had or have free markets. But it would be fair to say that governments were smaller back in 1913. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/34 "2012-09-11T03:58:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Heritage Foundation’s [Index of Economic Freedom](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking) ranks nations by the freedom from regulation, corruption, and government spending that their people enjoy. [This page provides data on poverty levels worldwide.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty) Even a cursory analysis shows that the nations ranked highest for economic freedom all have very low poverty rates, while those with the lowest economic freedom rankings tend to have high poverty rates. (For some there’s no data available.) The [Democracy Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_index) also shows a high correlation of democracy with prosperity. How do we know that isn’t the causal factor? ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/35 "2012-09-11T04:20:17Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > The USA has always had high per capita income, doesn’t mean that they had or have free markets. But it would be fair to say that governments were smaller back in 1913. In 1913 in the USA there certainly was free market capitalism. Total government spending only represented 8-10% of national income. Federal government revenue came from small excise taxes and duties on imports. The private sector was left alone. No rules and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/36 "2012-09-11T04:33:52Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > The private sector was left alone. No rules and regulations. I seem to recall that worked out very well for the people who ran the private sector, but not as well for the people who worked in its lower levels. Do you happen to have median income figures? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/37 "2012-09-11T04:50:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I seem to recall that worked out very well for the people who ran the private sector, but not as well for the people who worked in its lower levels. Do you happen to have median income figures? Not to mention the question of how high the rate of deaths and injuries were among the workers. And for that matter the consumers, from all those unregulated products. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/38 "2012-09-11T05:06:25Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > In 1913 in the USA there certainly was free market capitalism. Total government spending only represented 8-10% of national income. Federal government revenue came from small excise taxes and duties on imports. The private sector was left alone. No rules and regulations. And we’re a lot richer **now,** aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/39 "2012-09-11T05:35:31Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > With all due respect, **Der** , can you please dry up and blow away? Your reputation cancels out any good you might otherwise do in this particular discussion. But he is right. Der Trihs is often right. Hard to deal with, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339/40 "2012-09-11T06:59:41Z")
I think there is much validity in OP. (The numbers are not as one-sided as he implies, though. Cuba actually has a slightly higher life expectancy than the U.S.! The contentment enjoyed by much of Europe comes in large measure from their social welfare networks. The great success stories of Asia benefited from economic freedom rather than political freedom. The common denominator in failure stories is _not_ too much government regulation _per se_, it is too much government _corruption_.) And it makes no sense to impose classic left-vs-right debate in a country where the choices are center-right and extreme-right. Most Dopers are very aware of the virtues of capitalism, but we don’t fall for facile arguments. “Chocolate is delicious, so we should eat nothing but chocolate”? No. “Income inequality spurs ambition, so the more inequality the better”? If that were true, why is northern Europe so successful? Centrists like myself do not oppose capitalism. We oppose the caricature of capitalism that the U.S.A. is turning to. Rich corporations have enormous political power. Monopolies and cartels are permitted to flourish. UHC is turned into a boondoggle to enrich vested interests. Wall Street dominates the economy, and engages in huge “heads we win, tails the taxpayers lose” bets, with no real regulation. (Financial regulation has become so pathetic, America looks back with fondness to the days of Greenspan, an Ayn Rand disciple. :smack: ) If by “capitalism,” OP refers to a balanced system in which regulation plays a role, rather than the Dog-eat-Dog philosophy of Ayn Rand, then I agree with him. To relate the question to contemporary politics, I’d ask OP whether it is the Democrats or the GOP who would tend to move our country toward such a system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-a-polite-discussion-about-poverty-government-and-free-markets/634339.md?page=3)