# Can We Have Another Rant About Zero Tolerance Policies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183 "2014-03-20T20:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/21 "2014-03-21T23:01:07Z")
Thankfully I’ve never been put in a position of “authority” that has been tied in to a ZT policy. I don’t believe I’d last. > [@Palooka](#): > > Maybe the issue is that the person who started the suspension ball rolling made a poor decision. That could be the case, but without hearing why they decided to present the girl to the administration for disciplinary action, it feels wrong to condemn him or her. But part of the matter here is, if we are to believe the reports, that the administrators and Board _did not feel they had to explain themselves_, even after it took being pilloried on the evening news to get them to re-prioritize. She herself reported took the blade away and discarded it. This makes her be “in possession” momentarily and incidentally, but the penalty is the same as for someone introducing or transporting the weapon deliberately and seeking to cover it up. That is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/22 "2014-03-21T23:05:02Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > With zero tolerance there was never an opportunity for anybody to make a decision prior to the hearing. There is no option for the person who started the suspension ball rolling to look at the situation and say, “this is not the type of case this rule was intended for,” and let it go. It is zero tolerance. Any breaking of the rule, regardless of the circumstances, will initiate the consequences. It is a goto, not an if-then. > > Everybody appears brainless, because the option to use their brain is removed. Unless they’re heartless, I’m sure the principal and teachers closest to this girl felt terrible about putting her through this. They know (or should know) that the rule isn’t intended for this type of situation, but they’re not given the ability to do anything other than suspend her. They had the ability to initiate the appeal process without waiting for the local TV news station to make a stink about it. So I’m afraid that rings a bit hollow. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/23 "2014-03-21T23:36:58Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > With zero tolerance there was never an opportunity for anybody to make a decision prior to the hearing. There is no option for the person who started the suspension ball rolling to look at the situation and say, “this is not the type of case this rule was intended for,” and let it go. It is zero tolerance. Any breaking of the rule, regardless of the circumstances, will initiate the consequences. It is a goto, not an if-then. I don’t see the problem with a zero-tolerance policy that says, if you find a student with a weapon, you need to hold a hearing to figure out what you should do about it. That’s what the policy is saying with “recommend for long-term suspension.” The actual consequence of the action is left to the administrators’ discretion. Maybe the school administration just had some formalities to get through and the girl’s future was never in jeopardy. They wanted to formally account for an incident being reported and then resolved. The parents’ understandably flipped out and called the local news, who ran with it. That’s a pretty benign explanation of these events and is consistent with the policies on the school board’s site. You’re still left with the question of the appropriateness of the zero-tolerance policy hearing, but that’s different from a zero-tolerance expulsion. I don’t know why I even care. I don’t really, but these zero tolerance policy pit threads are always dumb. No one thinks about. They just have a laugh about how dumb people are. It’s such low-hanging fruit of a pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/24 "2014-03-22T00:58:40Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > I don’t know why I even care. I don’t really, but these zero tolerance policy pit threads are always dumb. No one thinks about. They just have a laugh about how dumb people are. It’s such low-hanging fruit of a pitting. And ironically, the whole mindset of _“This is wrong and it should never happen”_ was probably the same thing people were thinking when they started the zero tolerance policy in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![MagicEyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@MagicEyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicEyes)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/25 "2014-03-22T04:42:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When my son was in grade school he received a three day suspension. His crime was defending a mentally challenged student who was being beaten up by two kids. My son stopped the fight, hitting one of the boys (in defense) in the process. I argued with the school, but the zero tolerance policy prevailed. > > So I took time off of work and took him places (a Pirate game, kayaking, etc). Might as well enjoy his punishment. 🆒 You are awesome!! ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/26 "2014-03-22T06:28:44Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > My employee told the principal “I work and my wife works. We have no way to care for him on short notice during the day if he’s not in school. So he’s going to be back here tomorrow, attending class. If I find out you’ve sent him home to be alone in the house, I’m going to come down here and show you what MY zero tolerance policy looks like.” That fixed the problem but I don’t recommend it unless you have no fear of being arrested. You also have to have no fear of your kid being arrested. I bet there are schools out there with even harsher zero tolerance policies for students who trespass on school property while under a formal order to stay away (no matter how stupid). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/27 "2014-03-22T07:43:40Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I propose a zero tolerance policy on zero tolerance policies! Seems to me I saw a newspaper article rather recently, to the effect that exactly this attitude (zero tolerance toward zero tolerance) is becoming an increasingly popular attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/28 "2014-03-22T07:47:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The point is that she shouldn’t even have been written up in the first place! Or how about, they should wait until having a hearing or some such quasi-judicial proceeding, and _then_ suspend the student if that’s their finding – instead of suspending the student immediately pending a hearing sometime in the future. Shoot first and ask questions later much? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/29 "2014-03-22T11:12:52Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > [Zero Tolerance In Schools Today - Imgur](http://imgur.com/QCrjCq5) Good thing I wasn’t at work 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/30 "2014-03-22T11:26:16Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > I don’t see the problem with a zero-tolerance policy that says, if you find a student with a weapon, you need to hold a hearing to figure out what you should do about it. That’s what the policy is saying with “recommend for long-term suspension.” The actual consequence of the action is left to the administrators’ discretion. > > Maybe the school administration just had some formalities to get through and the girl’s future was never in jeopardy. They wanted to formally account for an incident being reported and then resolved. The parents’ understandably flipped out and called the local news, who ran with it. That’s a pretty benign explanation of these events and is consistent with the policies on the school board’s site. You’re still left with the question of the appropriateness of the zero-tolerance policy hearing, but that’s different from a zero-tolerance expulsion. > > I don’t know why I even care. I don’t really, but these zero tolerance policy pit threads are always dumb. No one thinks about. They just have a laugh about how dumb people are. It’s such low-hanging fruit of a pitting. The thing is, missing school, especially more than a couple days, carries a real cost. I teach high school, and I see the impact of repeated absences all the time–it’s not just a matter of having to make up a bunch of bull shit busy work, it’s missing lectures and support and Q&A time. Not only do grades take a dive, which is important, but actual rest-of-your-life how much you know is a little less. So have a hearing. Have your formalities. _But do it that afternoon_. Weapons violations and attempted suicides are big deals–they aren’t a routine part of the school day. It’s the kind of thing where you could get away with calling whomever you have to call to get things taken care of. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/31 "2014-03-22T13:58:37Z")
> [@MagicEyes](#): > > 🆒 You are awesome!! He is. Your child, at an early age where they’re still impressionable, stands up to peer pressure and does a good and noble thing. Then he gets punished for it. How do you encourage him to keep fling what’s right in light of those consequences? You teach him that, despite that outcome, dad approves and wants you to continue on the correct course, others be damned. Otherwise, the lesson the kid could take away from all that is that it’s more important to stand by and do nothing, not help even when it’s imperative, for fear of reprisal. So, I’m definitely on **kayaker** ’s side here. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/32 "2014-03-22T14:33:47Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I agree it is stupid. Basically it’s an abdication of common sense so your never faced with grey areas and tricky decisions. I don’t see much gray area here. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/33 "2014-03-23T00:14:52Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > As I’ve said before: anyone who uses Zero Tolerance as an argument should be considered redundant. If your management skills are no better than a lookup table that says “IF weapon THEN suspension”, then the school might as well fire your worthless ass and put the lookup table in charge. As George Carlin once said, “I get weary of this zero tolerance bulls–t. It’s annoying. To begin with, it’s a fascist concept; it’s what Hitler and Stalin practiced. It allows for no exceptions or compassion of any kind. All is black and white-no gradations. But even more important, it doesn’t solve anything. The use of such a slogan simply allows whichever company, school or municipality is using it to claim they’re doing something about a problem when, in fact, nothing is being done at all and the problem is being ignored. It’s a cosmetic nonsolution designed to impress simpletons. Whenever you hear the phrase zero tolerance, remember, someone is bulls–ting you.” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/34 "2014-03-23T01:25:15Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > You also have to have no fear of your kid being arrested. I bet there are schools out there with even harsher zero tolerance policies for students who trespass on school property while under a formal order to stay away (no matter how stupid). Yeah, I gave him hell over it and fully expected to get a call from some cop wanting to talk to him, but nothing happened. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/35 "2014-03-23T04:54:42Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > As George Carlin once said, “I get weary of this zero tolerance bulls–t. It’s annoying. To begin with, it’s a fascist concept; it’s what Hitler and Stalin practiced. It allows for no exceptions or compassion of any kind. All is black and white-no gradations. But even more important, it doesn’t solve anything. The use of such a slogan simply allows whichever company, school or municipality is using it to claim they’re doing something about a problem when, in fact, nothing is being done at all and the problem is being ignored. It’s a cosmetic nonsolution designed to impress simpletons. Whenever you hear the phrase zero tolerance, remember, someone is bulls–ting you.” I am perplexed by your willingness to quote George Carlin but your reticence to spell out the word “Bullshit”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/36 "2014-03-23T05:45:37Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I propose a zero tolerance policy on zero tolerance policies! There is probably a zero tolerance on the zero tolerance of zero tolerance policies. Anybody who imposes or implements a zero tolerance policy has indicated that they are incapable of making any kind of judgment. Such a person should not be in a policy making position or a policy enforcement position. Can we now get to the heart of the question: who invented zero tolerance policies in the United States and when? > **[Zero tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance)** > > A zero-tolerance policy is one which imposes a punishment for every infraction of a stated rule. Zero-tolerance policies forbid people in positions of authority from exercising discretion or changing punishments to fit the circumstances subjectively; they are required to impose a predetermined punishment regardless of individual culpability, extenuating circumstances, or history. This predetermined punishment, whether mild or severe, is always meted out. > Zero-tolerance policies are studied in cr... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/37 "2014-03-23T05:55:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Anybody who imposes or implements a zero tolerance policy has indicated that they are incapable of making any kind of judgment. Such a person should not be in a policy making position or a policy enforcement position. As I noted above, I think it’s unfair to put the blame on the people who implement a zero tolerance policy unless you can show they also had a hand in creating it. Let’s say the local government passes a zero tolerance law on some issue. You’re a school principal and you argued against the law but it was enacted over your objections. What do you do now? Do you resign your position in protest? Do you refuse to obey the law? Or do you try to do as much good as possible in your position and work through the bad parts like enforcing this law when it arises? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/38 "2014-03-23T06:23:58Z")
It would be really good to hear from someone who lives in the town and is personally acquainted with school and school district officials. Is there some subtext? Are these officials particularly stupid? Were they reprimanded in the past for not following law exactly? Say what you will about Thailand’s dysfunction, but there’s often much more flexibility here than in the Land of the Free™. As just one of many many examples, U.S. pharmacies will not give nitrates in any quantity for emergency heart patients without a prescription. These pills have no recreational use, and even 500,000 pills would not be enough to build an effective bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/39 "2014-03-23T08:09:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Let’s say the local government passes a zero tolerance law on some issue. You’re a school principal and you argued against the law but it was enacted over your objections. > > What do you do now? Do you resign your position in protest? Do you refuse to obey the law? Or do you try to do as much good as possible in your position and work through the bad parts like enforcing this law when it arises? I would refuse to obey the law. Forcing them to capitulate or see themselves crucified for their obscene dogma _is_ the way I would do as much good as possible. Throwing innocent children under the bus for the sake of their insanity is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183/40 "2014-03-23T08:24:05Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I would refuse to obey the law. Forcing them to capitulate or see themselves crucified for their obscene dogma _is_ the way I would do as much good as possible. Throwing innocent children under the bus for the sake of their insanity is not an option. You’re a public official in this hypothetical. If you feel that you can’t enforce the law then the honorable thing to do is quit your position. Putting yourself above the law is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-have-another-rant-about-zero-tolerance-policies/684183.md?page=3)