# Can we hope to eliminate Female Genital Mutilation while we still allow Male GM (circumcision) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838 "2017-07-21T21:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/21 "2017-07-22T00:20:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dude, I wouldn’t watch an appendectomy either; that doesn’t make appendectomys evil. Female genital mutilation is done for reasons that are completely indefensible. Medical circumcisions as are done today out of rote habit and a vague idea that they’re medically helpful. Not remotely the same thing. > > I also wouldn’t watch a C-Section - and I consider those pretty medically indefensible most of the time. I think less of them should be done. Why aren’t you using C-Sections as the pillar to build your analogy on? Unlike this FGM thing it wouldn’t immediately paint you as a wrongheaded sexist idiot, and it would also add some much-needed novelty to your argument. Sexist? What did I say that was sexist? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/22 "2017-07-22T00:28:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Begbert: You find circumcision easier to stomach than FGM, do you? How would you like to see a real medical circumcision on YouTube? Go ahead, I dare you. Put the sound up so you can hear the baby. It is not “normal” crying like for a tooth or a loaded diaper. It is a cry of terror and sheer agony. I have to admit I couldn’t finish it. Sorry, I forgot to give you the link with the Youtube video showing a circumcision. Here it is. [url]h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmX6RdRNoqk ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/23 "2017-07-22T00:37:09Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Manda Jo, I am not talking about my dick. What I am pointing out is that we cannot logically tell an immigrant woman from a Muslim or African country that it is wrong to take a knife to a baby girl’s genitals when there is no birth defect and no medical urgency to do so, and then tell her it is perfectly all right if she has her baby boy’s foreskin cut from his penis when there is no birth defect and no medical urgency to do so. Well, I don’t have to tell her anything: I just have to convince state legislatures that such a thing is logically convincing and that they should pass laws/authorize enforcement to the degree that people don’t do it. Lots of people (myself included) don’t see any logical difference between making alcohol legal and pot illegal, but lots of those same people (myself included) don’t smoke pot because the consequences are too severe. Do you really think people currently practicing FGM are mentally validating that choice with the argument “Well, Americans do it to boys!”? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/24 "2017-07-22T00:42:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dude, I wouldn’t watch an appendectomy either; that doesn’t make appendectomys evil. Female genital mutilation is done for reasons that are completely indefensible. Medical circumcisions as are done today out of rote habit and a vague idea that they’re medically helpful. Not remotely the same thing. > > I also wouldn’t watch a C-Section - and I consider those pretty medically indefensible most of the time. I think less of them should be done. Why aren’t you using C-Sections as the pillar to build your analogy on? Unlike this FGM thing it wouldn’t immediately paint you as a wrongheaded sexist idiot, and it would also add some much-needed novelty to your argument. Sexist? ??? Do you really read what I am saying? I am saying that Female Genital Mutilation is a horrible atrocity that men and women must fight against worldwide. Including in the West, (e.g. in America and Europe) where millions of immigrants are arriving from countries where 90% of women are genitally mutilated, and where immigrant couples are finding it ever easier to find a doctor who will multilate their daughter to “make her a good girl.” And what I have noticed is that a lot of these people refer to this horrid mutilation as “female circumcision.” And these people rightly wonder why female “circumcision” is illegal here, but not male. I want our position to be a consistent one that says that NO infant, BOY or GIRL, should have their genitals cut or modified except for cases of medical urgency. Is that sexist? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/25 "2017-07-22T00:48:21Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Do you really think people currently practicing FGM are mentally validating that choice with the argument “Well, Americans do it to boys!”? Well, they are using the argument “Americans do it to boys.” in boards like this, in discussions I have seen on YouTube and elsewhere. The more America and her allies push to eliminate FGM at home and abroad, the more often that argument will come up. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/26 "2017-07-22T00:54:44Z")
> [@](#): > > In my case (born in 1948) the hospital did not even ask for my parents’ consent. Neither my mom nor my dad could remember being asked. They just arrogantly decided for me that I would not want my foreskin. And, now,…you’re talking about your dick! NOBODY ASKED! ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/27 "2017-07-22T01:13:36Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And, now,…you’re talking about your dick! > > NOBODY ASKED! You voluntarily came onto a thread that was about circumcision. Guess what? Dicks are part of the discussion. I would love to tell you that my rights were taken away from me because they took off my clitoris and sewed my labia together, but I just don’t happen to have that equipment. The point of my comment is not my dick, it is that I was violated. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/28 "2017-07-22T01:15:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Sorry, I forgot to give you the link with the Youtube video showing a circumcision. Here it is. [url]h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmX6RdRNoqk Please observe 2 click rule for NSFW material. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/29 "2017-07-22T01:17:38Z")
NOBODY ASKED!!??? I didn’t rrealize that there was a new rule that required all information posted to be an answer to a previously posted question. Could you please direct me to this new rule? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/30 "2017-07-22T01:18:44Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I want our position to be a consistent one that says that NO infant, BOY or GIRL, should have their genitals cut or modified except for cases of medical urgency. > Is that sexist? It’s sexist to take a current, urgent issue for women and use it entirely as leverage to achieve your own political goals. It doesn’t matter if you agree it’s terrible–I’m sure you do. > [@Valteron](#): > > Well, they are using the argument “Americans do it to boys.” in boards like this, in discussions I have seen on YouTube and elsewhere. The more America and her allies push to eliminate FGM at home and abroad, the more often that argument will come up. No one who has any legislative power in this country is in favor of FGM. The people in favor of FGM in this country are a tiny minority, relatively speaking, and changing the behavior of millions of other people seems like a very difficult sell and a tremendously indirect way to address that issue. In other parts of the world, I can’t see people who practice FGM really using what Americans do thousands of miles away as an excuse. Now, if you want to argue that in places where FGM is common, public awareness efforts should aim themselves at all genital cutting, well, I would listen to that argument. But I’d really like to hear from an expert for the particular culture in question. T ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/31 "2017-07-22T01:21:40Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Please observe 2 click rule for NSFW material. > > [/moderating] Mr. or Ms. Moderator: Sorry to be so thick, but maybe I have been away from this message board too long. What is the 2-click rule and what is NSFW material? I’m serious, I really don’t understand.:o ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/32 "2017-07-22T01:26:28Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Mr. or Ms. Moderator: Sorry to be so thick, but maybe I have been away from this message board too long. What is the 2-click rule and what is NSFW material? I’m serious, I really don’t understand.:o From the FAQ: > [@FAQ - Rules for Posting at the Straight Dope Message Boards](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faq-rules-for-posting-at-the-straight-dope-message-boards/369395/9): > > We allow links to almost everything except things that would violate our other rules (for example: pornography, advertising, instructions on how to break the law.) > > In accordance with the [Registration Agreement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347160): > > However, we have two policies (in all forums): > (1) Links should be described (in your text, outside the link itself), so that people know what they’re clicking on; and > (2) all direct links should be “workplace safe” (the “two click” rule) > > In more detail: > > (1) LINKS SHOULD BE DESCRIBED > When posting links, please be courteous to your fellow posters: describe what you are linking to. It does not have to be a lengthy description, but “See this political cartoon” is better than “This is funny!” > > If your link is primary to the topic when starting a thread, please explain not only what the link is, but why you are linking there. Don’t just post a link to a news story or video and expect people to start a conversation about it. > INCORRECT: “Ain’t this cool?” > CORRECT: “This looks like the coolest electronic cat-feeder ever!” > > (2) LINKS SHOULD BE WORKPLACE-SAFE > This means in terms of sounds as well as visual content. A site that is not safe for workplace is sometimes called “NSFW.” Note that being “workplace safe” doesn’t just mean that there’s no nudity or explicit visible sex. A page with a flashing banner in large, bright colors that says “Hot Nubile Young Teens” would NOT be workplace safe. The criteria is: if your boss walked by while that was on your screen, would it cause her/him to stop and stare, and would it potentially cause problems at work? If yes, then don’t provide a direct link. > > Please understand: we’re not trying to impose censorship. We just don’t want anyone inadvertently clicking on a link to something that could be career-limiting if their boss happens to walk by. Lots of our members read the boards during work hours, and it’s easy to accidentally click a link when you’re scrolling or mouse-over-ing or whatever. We basically don’t care where you link as long as no one can get there accidentally. > > The goal is to set things up so that no one gets to such a website unintentionally; it requires TWO clicks, rather than just one click, to get to a site that is not safe for workplace. That’s our **two-click rule.** ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/33 "2017-07-22T01:30:07Z")
Yes we can hope to eliminate female circumcision while allowing male circumcision. No matter what you call it the vast majority of American males don’t think male circumcision should be eliminated and the vast majority of American females think female circumcision should be eliminated. That right there is the kind of socio-political unity among the electorate that is rare to see and unless that situation changes these two different forms of circumcision will be treated differently and the laws will remain the same, if not more stringently in favor of allowing male circumcision and eliminating female circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/34 "2017-07-22T01:35:13Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s sexist to take a current, urgent issue for women and use it entirely as leverage to achieve your own political goals. It doesn’t matter if you agree it’s terrible–I’m sure you do. > T Manda Joe, are you a millenial? (I am a baby boomer, almost 70 years young). The reason I ask is that I have noticed millenials use accusations like “sexist” and “racist” to describe anything you don’t like. It gets really confusing to an old fart like me. Like in Toronto last month where a group of ex-Muslims marched in the Pride parade with signs attacking Iran’s persecution of gays. (The marchers were Iranian in origin.) A conservative Muslim (who probably thinks it is just peachy to kill gays) almost got them kicked out of the parade by alleging (wait for it) RACISM!!! Attacking Iran’s murder of gays in a Pride parade might offend some Iranians along the Parade route, and since they are swarthy people, that is RACISM!!! is it not? If I am charged with sexism, it must be at about the same level of credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/35 "2017-07-22T01:41:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > From the FAQ: Okay, bone, that is quite clear and makes sense. Now I am sorry to be a pain in the a, but I have a technical question. How do I make something two-click? I mean how do I do it technically speaking? Sorry to be such a pest. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/36 "2017-07-22T01:44:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes we can hope to eliminate female circumcision while allowing male circumcision. No matter what you call it the vast majority of American males don’t think male circumcision should be eliminated and the vast majority of American females think female circumcision should be eliminated. That right there is the kind of socio-political unity among the electorate that is rare to see and unless that situation changes these two different forms of circumcision will be treated differently and the laws will remain the same, if not more stringently in favor of allowing male circumcision and eliminating female circumcision. Then people in the west who campaign against FGM in other countries will have a chink in their armour, and will seem like hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/37 "2017-07-22T01:45:57Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Okay, bone, that is quite clear and makes sense. Now I am sorry to be a pain in the a, but I have a technical question. How do I make something two-click? I mean how do I do it technically speaking? Sorry to be such a pest. Break the link like **Bone** did or put the link in a spoiler tag. Link (close the gap in between the red characters) You should get a spoiler box like this: link ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/38 "2017-07-22T03:27:08Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Then people in the west who campaign against FGM in other countries will have a chink in their armour, and will seem like hypocrites. Who are these people that we should care consider us hypocrites? Who are the people who overwhelmingly believe that both male and female circumcision are equivalent and must be banned? I don’t know that there is no such place but if there is I’m curious where a significant society has a predominant belief that both male and female circumcision should be eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/39 "2017-07-22T04:03:44Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > This is why I would like to ask my Jewish friends and relatives: Would you consider setting aside circumcision so that the Western cultures can have a logical, consistent position in the world-wide fight against child (male and female) genital mutilation. Can you join with the anti-circumcision movement to proclaim that human rights and the right to biomedical integrity of one’s genitals begins at birth? The problem is that for many, if not most Jews, male circumcision is commanded by G\*d and part of male Jewish identity. Historically, they have been pretty resistant to giving it up. I don’t expect them to change on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838/40 "2017-07-22T09:31:54Z")
I’m sorry you feel violated but if you actually respected people you wouldn’t alienate them on the basis of their identity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-hope-to-eliminate-female-genital-mutilation-while-we-still-allow-male-gm-circumcision/791838.md?page=3)