# Can we limit the removal of statues to the Confederacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744 "2017-08-15T21:24:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/21 "2017-08-16T19:04:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think you’re missing the point. The reason we celebrate Jefferson is not his actions regarding slavery. It’s not about weighing his life choices. It’s about _which_ choices we are celebrating. Sorry, but it’s you who are missing the point. 🙂 My point, and perhaps I was not clear enough, is to question whether there are some actions that are so hideous that they preclude us from ignoring them while “celebrating the good stuff”. To use an absurd example just to make a point, we wouldn’t expect the Westminster Kennel Club to use Hitler in their logo based on his legendary love of dogs, right? Even though loving dogs is a good thing, Hitler did a lot of very bad things. But it’s not enough to say “Well, Hitler is only known for the bad things”, but that’s circular logic. He’s “only known for the bad things” because we have judged those bad things to overshadow any talk of the good things. My question is: To what extent did Jefferson and/or Washington fight (even if verbally) to preserve the institution of slavery, and if they did to some significant degree, should we not reconsider our celebrating any of the good things they may have done? Surely there is some point where the bad thing overshadows the good thing. As noted, I’m not enough of a student of history to know just how much either of those men fought to keep slavery alive. I do know that TJ kept his own children in bondage, which seems pretty monstrous to me, apart from anything else one might say. Again, this is more of a question than a statement. Those who know more about history could perhaps answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/22 "2017-08-16T19:06:04Z")
Was he a citizen of Virginia, one of a loose association of sovereign states, or was he a citizen of the United States and an oath-bearing officer of its Army? You’ll find the answer in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/23 "2017-08-16T19:12:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do we make of the person of Thomas Jefferson-- a man who enslaved his own children? We honor him most strongly on the basis of his noble words about equality and freedom that are at the foundation of who we consider our nation to be. His own hypocrisy could not be more rank or more adamantly in opposition to his words, and it cannot be separated or ignored. Yes, it’s complicated. > [@](#): > > I don’t even know the answers to these questions myself. I just don’t think it’s quite so easy to compartmentalize these things and celebrate the “good parts”. There aren’t obvious answers because everyone under consideration for a monument, or its removal, was a human, not an angel or a devil. So you have to be clear what exactly it is about them that merits the decision. In the case of the Confederate leaders, the memorials are all about what they fought for (slavery) and how they did it (treason). The rest has always been a bunch of lies. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/24 "2017-08-16T19:17:56Z")
To paraphrase something I read yesterday, there are only like 8 good statues in the US and 3 of them are of dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/25 "2017-08-16T20:41:32Z")
We can easily draw a line here at “tried to overthrow the Constitution” for American figures. And now we have pretty much every mainstream liberal on record as supporting drawing a bright line there, so we’ll never have to worry about this in the future.🙂 For foreign figures like Vladimir Lenin, they can grind those statues into dust and should. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/26 "2017-08-16T21:11:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > > In the case of the Confederate monuments, they are publicly honouring things that most of us agree ought not to be so honoured, so I see no reason not to remove them. They are not so ancient as to become themselves of inherent historic significance. Apparently they radiate knowledge, which is why some people say to leave them up so that we can learn from them. People who don’t like to read books, I’d guess. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/27 "2017-08-16T22:31:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We can easily draw a line here at “tried to overthrow the Constitution” for American figures. And now we have pretty much every mainstream liberal on record as supporting drawing a bright line there, so we’ll never have to worry about this in the future.🙂 > > For foreign figures like Vladimir Lenin, they can grind those statues into dust and should. You think the Lenin statue in Seattle should be destroyed? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/28 "2017-08-16T22:40:59Z")
Not an **Elections** thread. Moved. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/29 "2017-08-16T22:45:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You think the Lenin statue in Seattle should be destroyed? Yes. Lenin was directly responsible for the deaths of at least 1 million people, possibly 5 million if you include the deaths from the famine during his rule. Should a statue of Josef Stalin stand in America, or Chairman Mao? Or for that matter, a statue of Mussolini or a monument dedicated to the Khmer Rouge? Also, Lenin was our enemy in his lifetime. It’s often forgotten but we did send troops to fight in the Russian Civil War against the Reds. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/30 "2017-08-16T23:42:32Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Yes. Lenin was directly responsible for the deaths of at least 1 million people, possibly 5 million if you include the deaths from the famine during his rule. Should a statue of Josef Stalin stand in America, or Chairman Mao? Or for that matter, a statue of Mussolini or a monument dedicated to the Khmer Rouge? > > Also, Lenin was our enemy in his lifetime. It’s often forgotten but we did send troops to fight in the Russian Civil War against the Reds. i’d say no. It’s privately owned and on private property. Lenin was a pretty bad man, but unlike him, I think you have a right to private property, and the government shouldn’t be destroying privately owned statues. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/31 "2017-08-17T00:06:36Z")
Virginia willingly joined the Union and ratified the Constitution. When Lee committed treason, he rejected that joining and ratification. Thus, he betrayed Virginia. And why is there a statue of Lenin in Seattle? Apparently because some individual wanted one, if it’s on private property, but has that individual ever stated his or her reasons? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/32 "2017-08-17T00:12:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Virginia willingly joined the Union and ratified the Constitution. When Lee committed treason, he rejected that joining and ratification. Thus, he betrayed Virginia. Didn’t Virginia willingly secede? Why yes it did. So Lee was loyal to the then current state. > [@](#): > > And why is there a statue of Lenin in Seattle? Apparently because some individual wanted one, if it’s on private property, but has that individual ever stated his or her reasons? Not sure. It doesn’t bother me to see it though. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/33 "2017-08-17T00:50:40Z")
All Confederate statues, monuments and the like should be erased from the face of the earth. Stone Mountain make take a nuke, but I’m good with that. Then deny any and all Federal services and benefits to anybody who wears, displays or has tattooed upon themselves any Confederate flag or symbol. Fuck all of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/34 "2017-08-17T01:52:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You think the Lenin statue in Seattle should be destroyed? Oh yeah. More sore losers who can’t move on. Whose idea was that shit anyway? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/35 "2017-08-17T02:36:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Since every single issue without exception involves drawing lines, this one can’t be dismissed because a line is being drawn. The line today is actual traitors who fought a war to sustain slavery and white supremacy. That’s a reasonable line that the overwhelming majority would support. Perhaps the line will move in the future. Likely it will, in fact. Either way, the discussion then will be about whether that line is appropriate and overwhelmingly agreed upon, not whether no lines should exist. Actually, it seems to me the current line is actual traitors. Ever see a statue of Benedict Arnold? There are two “memorials” to him that I know of - a boot monument in Saratoga National park and a plaque at West Point. Both of them conspicuously omit his name. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/36 "2017-08-17T02:44:09Z")
I agree that the line can be moved if societal sensibilities change, but if society doesn’t change, only a certain subset of liberals do, and they start demonstrating at the Jefferson Memorial, they’ll deserve the derision they get. Most prominent liberals are now on record drawing as clear a line as you can, and some have gone so far as to explicitly defend former slaveholders like Washington and Jefferson. I’m not sure how one can flip flop on that without damaging their reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/37 "2017-08-17T02:49:54Z")
I read somewhere that in the years after Independence in India, rather a lot of statues of British Royals, Governors, Generals and the like got relocated - in some cases to a park set aside for them. I’ve got no dog in the fight in the US at the moment but I don’t see a problem with moving statues of Confederate figures to a “Confederate Memorial Park” (not a shitty abandoned lot in a weird part of town, but an actual, properly maintained city park) so people who want to see them can see them and people who don’t want to be reminded of the injustices their ancestors suffered every time they go to pay their rates bill at the town hall don’t have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/38 "2017-08-17T02:51:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **octopus** : > > Didn’t Virginia willingly secede? No, because there was no legal means for it to do so, it having already ratified the Constitution. It tried extralegal means, but those also failed. EDIT: > [@](#): > > Quoth **Martini Enfield** : > > I’ve got no dog in the fight in the US at the moment but I don’t see a problem with moving statues of Confederate figures to a “Confederate Memorial Park” (not a shitty abandoned lot in a weird part of town, but an actual, properly maintained city park)… No, not a city park. Why should tax dollars go towards memorializing traitors? If any of the deplorables want to set up a park on their own privately-owned, privately-maintained land, they’re welcome to do so. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/39 "2017-08-17T02:57:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Suppose I come along and say, “Why should that be the rule? Anyone who owned slaves is a traitor – a traitor against humanity. And why should we ever keep a statute honoring someone who actually owned slaves? It’s repulsive!” > > What’s your defense against that argument, assuming you disagree? AFAIK the confederacy did claim to follow the real design of the founding fathers. The point here is that this shows how empty this argument is, specially when it comes from Trump too. Both sides in this case did/do respect the founding fathers, even IIUC for different reasons. > **[Would the Confederacy Have Celebrated the Fourth of July?](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/would-the-confederacy-have-celebrated-the-fourth-of-july/454464/)** > > July 4, 1861, was a day of ambivalence for many Southerners. > [@](#): > > In a 2009 paper in the Journal of Southern History, historian Paul Quigley wrote that while some Southerners were conflicted with celebrating the holiday, acknowledgement of the day continued on. In Charleston, S.C., he points out, a specially appointed five-member committee decided that “public procession, solemn oration, and political banquet ought to be omitted on the present occasion,” but offices would would be closed for the Fourth. > > Before the war, the meaning of the holiday was already taking on different flavors. In the North, abolitionists used its language of freedom to call for the end of slavery. In the South, secessionists used its language of willful rebellion to call for a new state, inciting that the North had not lived up to the Declaration of Independence’s promise. Quigley goes on to explain how the Fourth of July ambivalence was “part of their attempt to resolve tensions between southernness and Americanness.” > > But most importantly, the Fourth of July represented a shared celebration and an identity the North and South could rejoin after the war. In essence: Most Northerners and most Southerners would appreciate the founding fathers enough to dismiss ideas of the fringe of the fringe about also removing statues of Washington or other founding fathers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744/40 "2017-08-17T02:57:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, because there was no legal means for it to do so, it having already ratified the Constitution. It tried extralegal means, but those also failed. > > . Now this is an interesting statement. Can a state be a traitor? Seems to me that Wilson’s Fourteen Points addressed the right of people to self determination. If the people of a state don’t want to be in the Union anymore, don’t they have a fundamental right to no longer be a part of it? This is aside from the legal issue of whether a state can renounce the Constitution. Legal precedent says they cannot. But it seems to me that around the world, peoples who want to leave the larger nation to establish their own nation is a pretty well established human right. Labelling a whole people traitorous sounds pretty sinister to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-limit-the-removal-of-statues-to-the-confederacy/793744.md?page=3)