# Can we not flame SunGazer to death? OK? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2012, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589 "2012-07-08T08:55:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/41 "2012-07-09T10:52:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What, are you afraid of what you’d find if you took a look inside? Inside what, the chocolates in the country with mountains? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/42 "2012-07-09T11:43:04Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > If you have a cite where the US government states that it is a democracy in an official government document, I’d be interested in seeing it, particularly if it differentiates itself from a republic in doing so, as the the above Act of Congress does in the converse. I’m confused. Your cite specifically says the US is “democratic”. Is this just semantic nitpicking because it says “democratic” instead of “democracy”, or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/43 "2012-07-09T12:01:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Inside what, the chocolates in the country with mountains? There’s an insect in your ear if you scratch it won’t disappear, it’s gonna itch and burn and sting. Do you want to see what the scratching brings? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/44 "2012-07-09T12:37:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m confused. Your cite specifically says the US is “democratic”. Is this just semantic nitpicking because it says “democratic” instead of “democracy”, or am I missing something? That’s pretty much it. The cite also goes on to say why the nitpick is correct, explaining that town hall meetings are an example of a pure democracy and describing what makes the overall government a republic. In normal conversation, calling the US a democracy is A-OK by me. But when someone, like the OP, claims that it’s a democracy and not a republic - well, that’s just wrong. eta: the only reason I brought it up was because I was curious why the OP thought that claiming that the US is a republic is somehow partisan - I still don’t quite get that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/45 "2012-07-09T13:24:57Z")
The United States _is_ a democracy, both informally and formally because the Constitution establishes _democratic_ procedures for the structure of the government. Period. That’s all there is to it. The fact that the word “democracy” does not appear in the Constitution is probative of nothing. There are a lot of things that aren’t explicitly set forth in the Constitution, such as judicial review, for example. “A republic, not a democracy” became a conservative/Republican rallying cry in the 2000 presidential election recount. Why it happened is not entirely clear to me. Perhaps there was some implication was that the constitution didn’t care very much about determining the individual intent of voters. What is clear is that now when someone says “a republic, not a democracy” he’s most likely using it as a smokescreen for some line of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/46 "2012-07-09T13:30:09Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > That’s pretty much it. The cite also goes on to say why the nitpick is correct, explaining that town hall meetings are an example of a pure democracy and describing what makes the overall government a republic. > > In normal conversation, calling the US a democracy is A-OK by me. But when someone, like the OP, claims that it’s a democracy and not a republic - well, that’s just wrong. > > eta: the only reason I brought it up was because I was curious why the OP thought that claiming that the US is a republic is somehow partisan - I still don’t quite get that. I’ve been seeing these apparently pointless fights over “demnocracy vs replic” for years, and not only on the Dope Board. After wondering why the hell anyone caredc or made an issue of it. And then it hit me. We’re not a “Democracy” say the Republicans, we’re a Republic!" We’re a Democracy!" say the Democrats. Could it really be that simple and that lame? The Republicans don’t want to be a Democracy because it has the opposition party name in it? We’re a Republic, because it has their party name in it? It’s THAT petty? I’m convinced that it is. And I do think this is a Republican trope, because they’re the ones I hear bringing it up. The only time I hear Democrats arguing it is in response. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/47 "2012-07-09T13:38:21Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And I do think this is a Republican trope, because they’re the ones I hear bringing it up. The only time I hear Democrats arguing it is in response. Actually, I’ve heard the opposite from Republicans too; generally when they are trying to defend some obnoxious law that has popular support. Then _they_ are all “America is a democracy” and claim the popular vote should determine all. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/48 "2012-07-09T13:39:56Z")
**SunGazer** does have a bad habit of trying to hijack threads. Too bad he wasn’t here when\*\* Commissar\*\* was. I’m sure they would have entertained themselves quite well. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/49 "2012-07-09T13:55:14Z")
Differences between republics and democracies are not nominal. See [here](http://mises.org/books/socialism/part1_ch3.aspx) for instance. The political theory boils down to: the people are stupid, they should be kept content by leaders and democracy is fine as long as its primary function is keeping the ignorant populace from demanding political representation or a change in economic policy (which are essentially equivalent). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/50 "2012-07-09T13:59:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually, I’ve heard the opposite from Republicans too; generally when they are trying to defend some obnoxious law that has popular support. Then _they_ are all “America is a democracy” and claim the popular vote should determine all. You’re muddying the waters. Anytime they use the construction “A Republic, not a Democracy” it’s invariably a Republican speaking: > **[A Republic, Not a Democracy - Antiwar.com](https://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2005/03/02/a-republic-not-a-democracy/)** > > As Herr Schroeder was babbling on in Mainz, during his joint press conference with President Bush, about a need for carrots to coax Tehran off its nuclear program, Bush interrupted the chancellor to issue yet another demand that "the Iranian... [http://www.free-press.biz/usa/A-republic.htm](http://www.free-press.biz/usa/A-republic.htm) > **[A Republic, Not a Democracy](https://www.theamericanconservative.com/a-republic-not-a-democracy/)** > > As Herr Schroeder was babbling on in Mainz, during his joint press conference with President Bush, about a need for carrots to coax Tehran off its nuclear progr Try it the other way around, and you get virtually no hits. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/51 "2012-07-09T14:05:12Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > In normal conversation, calling the US a democracy is A-OK by me. But when someone, like the OP, claims that it’s a democracy and not a republic - well, that’s just wrong. The OP makes no such claim. I don’t understand why people have so much trouble with this; the United States is a republic and a democracy. There is no conflict there. A democracy is a country where the population has a voting say in the manner in which the state is run, as is the case in the USA. A republic is a country which is ruled by someone who is not selected by means of hereditary succession. The USA is a republic and a democracy. The United Kingdom is a democracy but is not, technically, a republic. The People’s Republic of China is a republic but is not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is not a republic, and it’s certainly not a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/52 "2012-07-09T14:05:19Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Differences between republics and democracies are not nominal. See [here](http://mises.org/books/socialism/part1_ch3.aspx) for instance. The political theory boils down to: the people are stupid, they should be kept content by leaders and democracy is fine as long as its primary function is keeping the ignorant populace from demanding political representation or a change in economic policy (which are essentially equivalent). Actually, this is using very specific definitions of “republic” and “democracy” which are relevant to discussions of political theory. They have little relevance to general conversation and no relevance to the U.S. Constitution. 1. The Constitution never says it is _not_ a democratic structure. 2. The Constitution never defines “republic” or “democracy.” 3. A “republic” can be democratic or non-democratic. Hitler and Saddam Hussein could both legitimately claim to head republican forms of government. Our system is a democratic republic. It is also a republican democracy. Only a fool would argue otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/53 "2012-07-09T15:58:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > We’re not a “Democracy” say the Republicans, we’re a Republic!" We’re a Democracy!" say the Democrats. Hey, hey, calm down, you two. The U.S. is a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/54 "2012-07-09T16:43:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [Man overboard!](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Admiralty_law_and_court_appearance_techniques) > [@clairobscur](#): > > This is way crazier than I thought :dubious: The animated tumbleweeds under “Freeman successes” are a nice touch. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/55 "2012-07-09T19:12:18Z")
OK, well that answers my question then. If the only reason that people want to argue over it is for selling line of crap, I want nothing to do with it. I prefer needless pedantry to partisan nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/56 "2012-07-09T20:36:40Z")
Look, if someone wants to argue that the United States is not a Republic, it’s a Democracy, then they’re an idiot. The United States is a republic. If someone wants to argue that the United States is not a Democracy, it’s a Republic, then they’re an idiot. The United States is a democracy. However, I’ve never once heard anyone argue the first point. I’ve heard dozens of right-wing cranks argue the second point. That is because “A republic, not a democracy” a right-wing crank talking point, and therefore anyone who repeats it can be assumed to be one kind of idiot or another. Not because they are a right-winger, but because they’re a crank who repeats crank talking points. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589/57 "2012-07-09T20:39:08Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’ve been seeing these apparently pointless fights over “demnocracy vs replic” for years, and not only on the Dope Board. After wondering why the hell anyone caredc or made an issue of it. And then it hit me. > > We’re not a “Democracy” say the Republicans, we’re a Republic!" We’re a Democracy!" say the Democrats. > > Could it really be that simple and that lame? The Republicans don’t want to be a Democracy because it has the opposition party name in it? We’re a Republic, because it has their party name in it? It’s THAT petty? Well, the first time anyone used the line at me was forty-four years ago; it was a fellow sixth-grader. So, yeah, it’s pretty much THAT petty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-flame-sungazer-to-death-ok/627589.md?page=2)