# Can we not steal children? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506 "2012-05-30T02:41:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/202 "2012-06-04T20:08:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > . “No one could possibly understand my experience. How can I possibly date a civilian after spending the last two years in Micronesia living on tarot root? I know nothing of popular culture and can’t make myself understood.” It was fucking tiresome and one of the reasons, albeit a very minor one, why I didn’t join. So, either its mostly pompous full of themselves people that actually join the Peace Corp or joining the Peace Corp turns you into one. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/203 "2012-06-04T20:09:38Z")
You need advice on how to talk to other human beings as equals? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/204 "2012-06-04T20:13:32Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I’m confused, if I asked someone what they did for their birthday and they said “Nothing too big, just hanging out in the city.” That would be a perfectly acceptable answer. I wouldn’t keep drilling them for info like they were hiding something. Why do I get the feeling there’s more to this story? If the person went on to say “Dude, I’m asking you what you did for your last birthday. Why are you being so cagey?” I can only assume that you either said it in such a way that you were clearly trying to get them to ask you more questions or you were obviously lying in a “No, really, I’m super modest, I don’t like talking about myself…but really I do” way. I think if she actually said, “Uh, I hung out with a friend in the city…?” with the question mark at the end, it would sound pretty bizarre. Like she’s basically trying to get the guy to ask her WTF is up so she can come out with a story about baseball bats and weird costumes to freak him out. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/205 "2012-06-04T20:23:40Z")
- Note: Conversation above is not actual dialog from an awkward first date. Do not try this at home, injury or embarrassment may result. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/206 "2012-06-04T20:32:36Z")
So then what was all this? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/207 "2012-06-04T20:34:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If you feel there is a moral problem with stealing children and giving them to good homes in the first world, propose what you think it is. I propose that stealing children from their own parents/relatives who care about them and want to keep them is intrinsically immoral. Even if they happen to live in poor countries. I realize that this is an audacious and unconventional assertion that may be considered too shocking even for the Pit, but I just had to say it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/208 "2012-06-04T20:39:20Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, either its mostly pompous full of themselves people that actually join the Peace Corp or joining the Peace Corp turns you into one. One thing I will say that impressed me is that the wide eyed “I just want to save the world and help children” types don’t make it past the initial interview stage. They want people who can deal with pressure and frustration and are interested in the adventure. Maybe those same types tend to be full of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/209 "2012-06-04T20:45:23Z")
I’ve been trying to elucidate exactly what bothers me about \*\* even sven \*\* . Mainly it’s the fact that she deigns to speak for minority cultures, as if she knows anything about them because she lived there, as a white woman, for a few months or years. Hell, _I_ don’t speak for Indian culture on the whole, even though I am Indian, and have lived it. I haven’t lived every story out there. I could tell you generally about what it’s like for a first or second generation Indian in America. I still can’t tell you everyone’s story. I don’t talk too much about life in India, even though I have lived there on and off, because I don’t feel I know much about it. But she talks about the places she’s been with a distressing finality and confidence. It does indeed irk me when **even sven** talks about other countries like she knows something about them. I generally don’t speak up about it for the same reason I don’t talk about the countries - I haven’t walked a mile in **even sven’s** shoes, have I? However it feels wrong to let this whole thread go without saying something. It feels just like it’s always been - some nice white lady going around thinking they know our hearts and minds. She may mean well, but it’s still condescending and smug. I don’t take away from **even sven** that she is racist. Far from it. I do find it mildly irksome that she speaks for us, wth nary a “I think” or “In my opinion” but just states it as fact. How can I know what it’s truly like to be a white person? I can speak as an American, but I’ve lived here the majority of my life. I can’t speak for white people. So why does she think she can speak for Africans, or indians, or whomever else? My two cents. Take it or leave it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/210 "2012-06-04T21:09:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’ve been trying to elucidate exactly what bothers me about \*\* even sven \*\* . Mainly it’s the fact that she deigns to speak for minority cultures, as if she knows anything about them because she lived there, as a white woman, for a few months or years. […] > > It feels just like it’s always been - some nice white lady going around thinking they know our hearts and minds. If you say so. I’m not disagreeing with your experience, but my recollection of **even sven** ’s general posting style about living in developing countries is that it’s mostly facts about those countries that I didn’t know. What Muslims in Cameroon eat during Ramadan if they’re exempt from fasting. What classroom etiquette in China is like. What temperature it gets to be in what country in what month. That sort of thing. I don’t hang out in MPSIMS or IMHO much, so maybe I’m missing more sentimentalizing or condescending posts. Or maybe other posters are reading sentimentality or condescension into her posts that isn’t really there. Or maybe it’s there but because I’m ignorant about the factual details pertaining to those countries, that information is what I notice instead. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/211 "2012-06-04T21:36:30Z")
You know **Even Sven** you’re not the only one who’s ever felt a bit alienated from American society. I am Jewish and I live in a largely Christian town. I can count the number of Jewish families in a ten block radius one on hand. My daughter has to explain to her class mates that she doesn’t celebrate Christmas or Easter and she really does not want to attend their “non-denominational” church. Last week she had to tell her best friend that she’s going to have a bas mitzvah instead of a first communion but she was happen to attend her friend’s ceremony. She’s nine. I was really proud of the way she managed to talk about her religion with great pride to a friend while being very respectful of her friend’s religion. Somehow we like it here and even get along very well. The neighbors (with the exception of a few bitches who need to retire to an adults only community) are nice people even if my background is a bit different than theirs. One of them happens to be from China, another from Haiti and a third from Russia. Somehow they manage to talk about their experiences abroad with the rest of us without making us hate them for their pretension. I have no idea why you find this simple task so difficult. My nine year old manages it. If you really want to find out how to better convey your experiences abroad without sounding both pretentious and condescending I strongly suggest you read the book _Surviving Paradise_ by Peter Rudiak-Gould. Gould’s book is one of the fascinating narratives I’ve ever read. He respectfully talks about his experiences as a vounteer for a organization similar to the Peace Corps living on a small micronesia island that’s probably ten times less familiar to most Americans than China or Cameroon. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/212 "2012-06-04T21:52:08Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I am confused about if this is supposed to be a for-real conversation that you had. Did you really give this answer in response to that question? Yeah. I thought of that, too. But she actually answers that question right in the post with a parenthetical “real situation”. In her defense, though, I think I see something else happening here. I think she may be a bit nervous about being judged as “ZOMG, I think I’m so exotic!!” If you are on a date, and you are nervous about coming off like that, you might be all awkward and cagey. It takes a bit of diplomacy and skill and tact to steer the conversation away from all the things that you think may razzle dazzle others and back to a give and take kind of exchange of thoughts and details and ideas. It’s harder for some than it is for others. In other words, it is possible that she is aware that she can come off kind of patronizing, and she over corrects when she is around people who she fears will judge her as condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/213 "2012-06-04T22:02:00Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Somehow we like it here and even get along very well. The neighbors (with the exception of a few bitches who need to retire to an adults only community) are nice people even if my background is a bit different than theirs. One of them happens to be from China, another from Haiti and a third from Russia. Somehow they manage to talk about their experiences abroad with the rest of us without making us hate them for their pretension. > > I have no idea why you find this simple task so difficult. My nine year old manages it. Not quite the same thing, though. The “returned wanderer culture shock” of coming back to your **native** culture after years of immersion in a very different **foreign** culture is different from immigrants learning to adapt to a new culture, or for multi-ethnic/multi-cultural communities getting along with each other. Not that I don’t agree you should be very proud of your daughter and happy with your neighbors for their successful multi-cultural adaptation, of course! Just pointing out that their experience is different from being a native culture-A person coming **back** to culture A, where technically you **ought to** feel at home and comfortable and good at communicating with people, but nonetheless feeling like your brain is still stuck in the very different world of culture B. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/214 "2012-06-04T23:08:21Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > …I haven’t walked a mile in **even sven’s** shoes, have I? You should, sandals cut from old truck tyres are an important marker of social worth and status in her community. Stealing them off the truck is a bitch, true, but it’s really no different from queuing for three days for the new iPad. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/215 "2012-06-04T23:14:28Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > This thread is getting confusing. Could someone just tell me who I’m supposed to kidnap? Someone with money! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/216 "2012-06-05T00:47:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I propose that stealing children from their own parents/relatives who care about them and want to keep them is intrinsically immoral. Even if they happen to live in poor countries. > I realize that this is an audacious and unconventional assertion that may be considered too shocking even for the Pit, but I just had to say it. So you believe parental rights trump what is best for the child? That’s a very children-as-property perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/217 "2012-06-05T02:09:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Me: Okay what happened is that. I was with a friend trying to lay low while a crowd of a few thousand young people flooded the central square of downtown Chongqing wearing plastic devil horns and beating each other with huge inflatable baseball bats. > Date: WTF? What does that even mean? > Me: That’s apparently how they celebrate Christmas in China. I actually snorted/laughed out loud there. > [@hajario](#): > > I may have mentioned this before but when I was nearly done with my undergraduate degree, I seriously considered the Peace Corps. The 25th anniversary of the PC had recently happened and they had just made a huge effort to contact as many former volunteers as possible, many of whom agreed to be contacted by prospective volunteers. > > I talked to a good many of them. The ones whose experience was well behind them had a pretty good perspective about it. It was different for many of the ones who had only been out for less than three years or so. It was more often the men than the women but the whine was a familiar one. “No one could possibly understand my experience. How can I possibly date a civilian after spending the last two years in Micronesia living on tarot root? I know nothing of popular culture and can’t make myself understood.” It was fucking tiresome and one of the reasons, albeit a very minor one, why I didn’t join. Hmm. The thing about the PC is that you either really want to go or you kind of don’t care but you’re somewhere in the interview process. Maybe it just wasn’t your thing. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/218 "2012-06-05T09:26:29Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I like your theory: > > Date (real situation): My birthday is blah blah blah. Last year I had this big party at a nighclub! What about you? What’d you do for your last birthday? > Me: Uh, I walked around outside with a friend? > Date: What the hell does that mean? What did you really do? > Me: Nothing too big, just hanging out in the city. > Date: Dude, I’m asking you what you did for your last birthday. Why are you being so cagey? > Me: Okay what happened is that. I was with a friend trying to lay low while a crowd of a few thousand young people flooded the central square of downtown Chongqing wearing plastic devil horns and beating each other with huge inflatable baseball bats. > Date: WTF? What does that even mean? > Me: That’s apparently how they celebrate Christmas in China. > Date: Wait, what? What were you doing in China? > Me: I lived there a while. > Date: How long? > Me: Two years with Peace Corps. I just got back a couple months ago. > Date: Uh wow, that must be kind of intense. Uh, I didn’t know they had Peace Corps in China! Don’t they usually do that in some mud hut in Africa or something? > Me: Nice weather out? Do you like Italian food? Uhhh… I’m going to put this very tightly and simply for you so there can be no misunderstandings. Living and working abroad, even in far-flung places like China, isn’t _that_ unusual. You are not going to mess with your date’s simple little mind by throwing this detail at him. You - and this experience - isn’t actually as rare and special as you seem to think it is. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/219 "2012-06-05T09:45:59Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m going to put this very tightly and simply for you so there can be no misunderstandings. > > Living and working abroad, even in far-flung places like China, isn’t _that_ unusual. You are not going to mess with your date’s simple little mind by throwing this detail at him. > > You - and this experience - isn’t actually as rare and special as you seem to think it is. Either that or she needs to find better dates than ones who think Taco Bell is ethnic food. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/220 "2012-06-05T10:51:19Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Dopers are French? Who knew? > > . Yeah, some are… And regarding this particular story, I’d note that Chad being politically heavily reliant on France, people involved were in short order sent back to France to, theorically, stay behind bars until the end of their sentences. But all of them were freed (pardonned or something) in equally short order. Honestly, some of them were in all likelihood totally unaware of what was going on (the medical staff for instance) and shouldn’t have been sentenced in the first place IMO. On the other hand others, and one in particular, should have stay for a long time in jail. And some others, who happened not to be in Chad at the time, including some potential adoptive parents should have been prosecuted too but weren’t. The whole thing was quite a shame, really. Not only because of the deceiving parents (parents told their children were to be shipped to France for adoption, but rather that they would be temporarily relocated to a safer place in Chad) and stealing children issue, but also because of the way the concepts of justice and retribution were trampled upon. You can’t leave a decent, good meaning, baby stealer under the thumb of an African judicial system, can you? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/221 "2012-06-05T11:59:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I propose that stealing children from their own parents/relatives who care about them and want to keep them is intrinsically immoral. Even if they happen to live in poor countries. Or if the father has suddenly decided to be extremely busy Elsewhere, or if the child is part of an ethnic minority whose customs don’t match those of the local majority, or… > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So you believe parental rights trump what is best for the child? That’s a very children-as-property perspective. The view that children can and even should be “rescued” from their homes when the only defect of those homes is being economically disadvantaged is a very children-as-a-comodity perspective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506.md?page=12)