# Can we not steal children? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506 "2012-05-30T02:41:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/222 "2012-06-05T13:57:47Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Somehow they manage to talk about their experiences abroad with the rest of us without making us hate them for their pretension. Wow. You mean they don’t give you an accusatory look and say “Can we not steal children”? They’ve found a way to express themselves without creating resentment? Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/223 "2012-06-05T14:02:58Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The view that children can and even should be “rescued” from their homes when the only defect of those homes is being economically disadvantaged is a very children-as-a-comodity perspective. Do you really think that’s the only defect with third world homes? You have higher rates of rape, domestic violence, mutilation and etc in the third world. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/224 "2012-06-05T14:10:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Do you really think that’s the only defect with third world homes? You have higher rates of rape, domestic violence, mutilation and etc in the third world. Columbus, Ohio has a fairly high homicide rate. Should my children be forcibly removed from my care and given to a loving family in, say, Seattle? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/225 "2012-06-05T14:18:39Z")
Just to be perfectly clear, stealing _from_ children is still cool, right? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/226 "2012-06-05T14:26:39Z")
Date: What’d you do for your last birthday? Me: I’d tell you, but then I’d have to kill this conversation and any chance of this date succeeding! Date: Huh? FIN ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/227 "2012-06-05T14:37:41Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Columbus, Ohio has a fairly high homicide rate. Should my children be forcibly removed from my care and given to a loving family in, say, Seattle? Probably. Anything to keep a few more children from growing up as Buckeye fans. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/228 "2012-06-05T15:05:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Do you really think that’s the only defect with third world homes? You have higher rates of rape, domestic violence, mutilation and etc in the third world. Using that logic Canadians should be grabbing kids from the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/229 "2012-06-05T15:20:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Using that logic Canadians should be grabbing kids from the United States. Wait you mean we’re not supposed to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/230 "2012-06-05T15:28:33Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Using that logic Canadians should be grabbing kids from the United States. That would have been the best! I love hockey and Tim Horton’s!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/231 "2012-06-05T15:33:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Using that logic Canadians should be grabbing kids from the United States. They try, but we keep picking them off before they get back to the car. BOOM! Headshot! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/232 "2012-06-05T15:46:36Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > One thing I will say that impressed me is that the wide eyed “I just want to save the world and help children” types don’t make it past the initial interview stage. They want people who can deal with pressure and frustration and are interested in the adventure. Maybe those same types tend to be full of themselves. I don’t know many Peace Corps volunteers and the one or two I knew a while ago I didn’t have a lot of respect for (yeah, Africa really needs your liberal arts degree in a health clinic. If you got a job and send them some donations they could do a lot better by paying an expert, but then you wouldn’t get to feel so good about it!) but the people I met when I visited my cousin in Mexico really impressed me. She’s not at all in a typical Peace Corps site (she works in tech transfer at a university; she has a science Ph.D.) but we met some of her fellow volunteers in a range of situations and they were all very impressive young people who I felt were doing good work. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/233 "2012-06-05T16:03:04Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Wait you mean we’re not supposed to do that? Didn’t you even read the OP? Stealing children is BAD, ok? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/234 "2012-06-05T16:05:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So you believe parental rights trump what is best for the child? That’s a very children-as-property perspective. […] > > > [@Nava](#): > > > > The view that children can and even should be “rescued” from their homes when the only defect of those homes is being economically disadvantaged is a very children-as-a-comodity perspective. > > Do you really think that’s the only defect with third world homes? You have higher rates of rape, domestic violence, mutilation and etc in the third world. As others have noted, if **relative** levels of safety and prosperity are your yardstick, then there’s no reason that, say, Scandinavians shouldn’t be kidnapping kids from the US. You also seem to have a very undifferentiated view of what constitutes “third world homes”. You do know that there are literally millions of families even in developing countries who live in stable communities with decent incomes and education and health care, low crime rates, opportunities for higher education, and material advantages like ownership of cars, refrigerators, computers, etc., right? Are you including children of those families in your “okay to kidnap” category just because they’re technically “in the third world”? And no, it’s not treating “children as property” to say that it’s wrong to kidnap them from parents who want them and care about them. I’m all in favor of promoting universal children’s human rights as outlined by agreements such as the [UN Convention on the Rights of the Child](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child) (and I wish that the US would stop aligning itself with Somalia as the only two nations that have failed to ratify it). But it doesn’t further children’s rights to say that it’s okay to kidnap them from their families just because they live in third world societies. If you were limiting the scope of your arguments specifically to children in situations of catastrophic disaster and violence—abandoned children orphaned by war and epidemics or imprisoned in child brothels, that sort of thing—you might have something more closely approximating a reasonable case. But to say that it’s morally okay just to snatch children away from caring and loving parents, just because in their countries **average** crime rates are comparatively high and/or average standards of living are comparatively low, is either ridiculously stupid or outright racist. I’m not seriously shocked by it in this case because it seems pretty evident that you’re more or less trolling, or at least exaggerating a “modest proposal”-type suggestion for shock value. But just for shits ‘n’ giggles, **Martin Hyde** , what is **your** position on US ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/235 "2012-06-05T17:50:41Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I don’t know many Peace Corps volunteers and the one or two I knew a while ago I didn’t have a lot of respect for (yeah, Africa really needs your liberal arts degree in a health clinic. If you got a job and send them some donations they could do a lot better by paying an expert, but then you wouldn’t get to feel so good about it!) but the people I met when I visited my cousin in Mexico really impressed me. She’s not at all in a typical Peace Corps site (she works in tech transfer at a university; she has a science Ph.D.) but we met some of her fellow volunteers in a range of situations and they were all very impressive young people who I felt were doing good work. Peace Corps volunteers are assigned at the request of the host country, and the host country sets the qualifications according to their needs. Peace Corps and the government of Mexico have designed a program that focuses on highly skilled technical experts, so it is a somewhat unusual program. Other countries make less specific needs, and develop programs appropriate for recent college grads. It’s always about what a host country wants and needs. Most Peace Corps jobs are fairly standards 9-5 jobs like classroom teaching, organizing training programs, managing community centers and running youth groups. They don’t require many unusual skills beyond a college education and lots of motivation. Lots of host country governments, however, have a hard time staffing these positions locally, often because college grads in poor countries generally don’t want to live in villages with limited long-term opportunity. To illustrate, in 2006, 42,000 people entered Cameroonian universities, in a population of 17 million. Assuming half of them graduate, that leaves 21,000 new graduates in the country each year- that’s the size of just a single large university in California, which has a similar population! If we assume that half of those will want to stay in the capital or go abroad, that’s 10,500 for the rest of a country the size of California, or 168 new college grads for each of the 59 non-capital municipalities (counties) to staff the government, run the schools, run the healthcare system, build infrastructure, and try to build a functioning private sector. It works out to one new college grad for every 952 rural resident (and many of those will end up in bunched in regional capitals). Throwing a dozen extra college grads into the poorest municipalities who are willing to take on fairly unglamorous jobs in the areas with the worst living conditions actually does make a meaningful difference. The other 2/3 of the Peace Corps mission is about cultural exchange, both in the host country and the US. Peace Corps volunteers are a tool of soft diplomacy abroad, and bring back expertise on remote regions and under-studied languages to the US. I doubt a lot of Peace Corps volunteers get a ton of “feel good” about the work they did. You spend a good chunk of your two years lost and reliant on the goodwill of others. You are acutely aware through the whole thing how you are getting more out of the experience than the people you are supposed to be helping. There is tons of survivor’s guilt as you reconcile the fact that unlike your friends, you have a plane ticket home and a decent chunk of money waiting for you when you get one. For most of the people I know, it’s been a complex experience that brings up a lot of ambivalent, difficult feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/236 "2012-06-06T05:20:21Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > And before I get accused of dragging shit from other boards, I’m not the one doing it, I’m just the one pointing it out! [Moderating] Guess what’s happening anyway! **Myranlene** , I know you know that bringing up offboard shit is against the rules, because I’ve personally given you a warning about this before. Knock this shit off, or I’ll give you a second one. That, of course, goes for everyone else in the thread as well. If you’ve got a beef with someone because of what they’ve written on another board, go to that board and yell at them. Don’t do it here. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/237 "2012-06-06T05:49:49Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Columbus, Ohio has a fairly high homicide rate. Should my children be forcibly removed from my care and given to a loving family in, say, Seattle? Oh no, not Seattle - they would rust! Or mildew, or both… ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/238 "2012-06-06T12:33:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Guess what’s happening anyway! > > **Myranlene** , I know you know that bringing up offboard shit is against the rules, because I’ve personally given you a warning about this before. Knock this shit off, or I’ll give you a second one. Yeah, I know. PS: You called me “Myranlene” that time, too. > [@](#): > > That, of course, goes for everyone else in the thread as well. If you’ve got a beef with someone because of what they’ve written on another board, go to that board and yell at them. Don’t do it here. > [/Moderating] The problem, if you are following along, is not what they are saying on another board. It’s what they are bringing over onto _this_ one. But your response seems to indicate that you can drag shit from other boards as long as you are not open about it. Aye, aye, captain. ETA: I’m not “complaining”, before you tell me to take it to ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506/239 "2012-06-06T12:36:09Z")
The whole thread is like TLDR, but I pondered the question in the title for a half-second: Okay, you got me, I agree not to steal any children. Now could I say it any fairer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-not-steal-children/623506.md?page=11)