# Can we now, finally, chew the lying stripper a new one? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2007, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607 "2007-04-11T05:01:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/41 "2007-04-11T15:15:10Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] **Bricker** suggested in the OP that you might want to revisit some of your earlier positions. [/QUOTE] ::mentally revisiting my earlier positions:: 1. It’s illogical and bloody stupid to believe that its statistically unlikely that a white man would rape a black woman. **I still believe that.** 2. It’s unjust to view accusations of white-on-black rape with automatic suspicion, without the benefit of evidence or knowing anyone’s credibility. **I still believe that.** 3. That anyone who believes that race determines someone’s proclivity to rape or be raped is an idiot racist. **I still believe that.** Gee, that was fun. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/42 "2007-04-11T15:20:36Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] ::mentally revisiting my earlier positions:: 1. It’s illogical and bloody stupid to believe that its statistically unlikely that a white man would rape a black woman. **I still believe that.** 2. It’s unjust to view accusations of white-on-black rape with automatic suspicion, without the benefit of evidence or knowing anyone’s credibility. **I still believe that.** 3. That anyone who believes that race determines someone’s proclivity to rape or be raped is an idiot racist. **I still believe that.** Gee, that was fun. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Bricker > SDSAB Join Date: Dec 1999 > Posts: 15,760 > Location: Northern Virginia > > \*Originally Posted by you with the face on 04-11-2006 > I find it hard to believe that the DA would be willing to stake his reputation (and re-electability) on the basis of nothing. Maybe he is an idiot like that, but I haven’t seen indication that he is. \* > > And now? > > Bricker > View Public Profile > Send a private message to Bricker > Find all posts by Bricker > > 03-23-2007, 04:36 PM #1692 > > Huerta88 > Member Join Date: Sep 2002 > Posts: 1,648 > Location: > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Bricker > And now? > And now crickets chirp, and a tumbleweed rolls through the room. That position. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/43 "2007-04-11T15:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] The charges against them have been dropped. Now they can go about putting their lives back to get together. To me, this is a good thing. Just because it should have never happened in the first place doesn’t mean this is not a just outcome. [/QUOTE] Of course it does. This is the absolute \*least \*thing that can happen. It is so far from just as to leave justice dead in the dust. If I beat on you for a year, and one day stop beating, is that just? Is that fair? Would you say to yourself “Hey, now I can get on with my life, justice has been served?” I really rather think not. You would want some recompense for the beating before you would even think of it being a good outcome. Of course, it’s \*good \*that you are no longer being beaten on a daily basis, but for you to think of it as \*just \*would be simply bizarre. Of course it’s good that the charges are being dropped, but good has little to do with justice. Justice has to do with what is fair, and appropriate. In point of fact, there has been no justice for these men. They never saw the inside of a courtroom to answer the vile and false charges. They have been judged by the media, and by special interests with axes to grind, but not by the justice system. No judge or jury ever evaluated their guilt or innocence. “Oops, my bad,” is hardly justice. It is a travesty of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/44 "2007-04-11T15:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=NinjaChick] Can I just point out to everyone that’s completely worked up about this that (presumably) you are not involved in this situation? It could be said that it’s not worth your ire. The American court system fucked up. Some people, driven by the media, got hysterical. Is this a surprise? There’s absolutely nothing unusual about this case other than the fact that the media latched on to it. [/QUOTE] It’s a gross miscarriage of justice that pisses a lot of people off, so they blow off steam on a message board. What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/45 "2007-04-11T15:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] That position. [/QUOTE] Oh. Nifong is a poopy head!!!1 He’s an idiot and evil. I hate him! Need to write my congressman about him, yes I do. No, but seriously. I hope he gets what he fully deserves for the havoc he’s caused! I did give him the benefit of the doubt because I figure as a District Attorney that is a reasonable thing to do. Not going to apologize for that, so sorry if that’s what you were looking for. Kinda sad that **Bricker** and yourself have been waiting around with baited breath for _that_, isn’t it? That was what, one post out of eleventy billion from me? Written a whole year ago? Didn’t know you were that enthralled with my opinions and it kind of gives me goosebumps, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/46 "2007-04-11T15:34:15Z")
Some people are never satisfied. These overprivileged white jocks got away with it, and you still want more? :rolleyes: /sarcasm ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/47 "2007-04-11T15:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Oh. Nifong is a poopy head!!!1 He’s an idiot and evil. I hate him! Need to write my congressman about him, yes I do. No, but seriously. I hope he gets what he fully deserves for the havoc he’s caused! I did give him the benefit of the doubt because I figure as a District Attorney that is a reasonable thing to do. Not going to apologize for that, so sorry if that’s what you were looking for. Kinda sad that **Bricker** and yourself have been waiting around with baited breath for _that_, isn’t it? That was what, one post out of eleventy billion from me? Written a whole year ago? Didn’t know you were that enthralled with my opinions and it kind of gives me goosebumps, it does. [/QUOTE] Because statistics show that DAs very rarely nail their colours to the mast unless they’ve got a pretty solid case? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/48 "2007-04-11T15:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Kinda sad that **Bricker** and yourself have been waiting around with baited breath for _that_, isn’t it? That was what, one post out of eleventy billion from me? Written a whole year ago? Didn’t know you were that enthralled with my opinions and it kind of gives me goosebumps, it does. [/QUOTE] Are you calling them worm eaters? Them’s fightin’ words! ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/49 "2007-04-11T15:38:42Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] “Oops, my bad,” is hardly justice. It is a travesty of justice. [/QUOTE] Yes, but considering the fact that no one can go back in time and prevent Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong from behaving as they did, what else should be done? What happened to the Duke students should not have happened, but since it did, I think this is the best ultimate outcome. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/50 "2007-04-11T15:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Of course it does. This is the absolute \*least \*thing that can happen. It is so far from just as to leave justice dead in the dust. If I beat on you for a year, and one day stop beating, is that just? Is that fair? [/quote] Yeah, I understand all this. That doesn’t change the fact that it is, indeed, a good thing that the charges have been dropped. We can continue to beat this dead horse until we have horse pate, or we can just agree on this point. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/51 "2007-04-11T15:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] Yes, but considering the fact that no one can go back in time and prevent Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong from behaving as they did, what else should be done? What happened to the Duke students should not have happened, but since it did, I think this is the best ultimate outcome. [/QUOTE] But . . . do you not agree as to the posters (self included) who have suggested with great specificity “what else” can be done to and with Nifong and Mangum and the City of Durham? Or is the _nolle prosequi_ decision literally, in your mind, the “ultimate” (meaning final) outcome, and all that should happen? Beyond applying retributive justice to the criminals in this case, do you not see a value in discussing the issues raised here, such as the ugliness of racial mob politics, the fact that Grand Jurors apparently will, as the old saying goes, indict a ham sandwich, the unaccountability of dumbass college faculties, the dangers of prosecutorial discretion, and the fact that women definitely do sometimes lie about rape? I think those are all important issues/lessons, and ones that we risk not learning with a blithe “justice has been done, let’s not talk about this anymore” approach to this train wreck. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/52 "2007-04-11T15:48:03Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Yeah, I understand all this. That doesn’t change the fact that it is, indeed, a good thing that the charges have been dropped. [/QUOTE] But not _justice_, which is what I took issue with in your original comment. My complaint is that you have claimed that it is a \*just \*outcome. And you did. The word “good” does not appear in your post, and your attempt to shift the argument to whether the outcome is good or not is transparent, and beneath you, and by no means a dead horse. Good != Just. Hi Yo Silver, Yippee Ki Yi Yay. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/53 "2007-04-11T15:55:02Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The word “good” does not appear in your post, and your attempt to shift the argument to whether the outcome is good or not is transparent, and beneath you, and by no means a dead horse. [/quote] It _is_ a dead horse. A dead horse you continue to flog because you get off on being outraged over this, and to such an extent that you’re _actually arguing me because I said justice has led to the charges being dropped in this case_. This is loony toons to me and I haven’t the time for it. Call it good, if calling it justice offends you. Shit, call it orange marmalade. I don’t care anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/54 "2007-04-11T15:55:35Z")
Huerta88, I don’t know why you’re bothering. At least 9 people out of 10 here will never, ever, ever just admit they were wrong and try to approach an issue honestly. I don’t know what it is about this Board that attracts such tireless debaters who are so terrified of just admitting they were wrong - people who will deny a ship has sunk while it sits on the bottom of the ocean and happy little crabs and seahorses play a calypso tune in the ballroom - but that’s the culture of the SDMB, I’m afraid. Just like the Group of 88, you’re not going to get too many people, if any, who condemned those students or supported the accuser to just admit they were wrong and start taking that will-o-the-wisp of “innocent until proven guilty” seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/55 "2007-04-11T16:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] Yes, but considering the fact that no one can go back in time and prevent Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong from behaving as they did, what else should be done? [/QUOTE] (Sigh.) It’s a really short thread. Many suggestions have been offered. FOR STARTERS, the falsely accused can be compensated dollar for dollar for out of pocket expenses, and for whatever a jury finds proper for pain suffering, and punitive damages. The Group of 88 can apologize. Nifong can apologize. Nifong can lose his law license. Nifong can go to jail. Nifong can pay his last red cent to the falsely accused students. Richard Broadhead can apologize. Richard Broadhead can lose his job. The professor who flunked two LAX`students can be fired. The NAACP can apologize. Lynwood Smith can be fired. Lynwood Smith can pay his last red cent to the students. Meehan can lose his business. Meehan can go to jail. Meehan can pay his last red cent to the students. Crystal Mangum can go to jail, for at least as long of a sentence as the students faced. What **Huerta88** said. There’s lots more. Let me know if you need to see it. This is so far from the best ultimate outcome as to make me suspect that you do not kow what those words mean. [QUOTE=ywtf] It is a dead horse. A dead horse you continue to flog because you get off on being outraged over this, and to such an extent that you’re actually arguing me because I said justice has led to the charges being dropped in this case. This is loony toons to me and I haven’t the time for it. Call it good, if calling it justice offends you. Shit, call it orange marmalade. I don’t care anymore. [/QUOTE] This is what you actually said, just upthread. “Yay, justice has been done.” As \*\*Una \*\*points out, some people will simply not admit when they are wrong. You did not say that justice has led to the charges being dropped. You said justice has been done, quite sarcastically (Yay) and then when that proved obviously false, tried to argue that “good” equals “justice.” Now you claim that it’s all semantics. “Call it orange marmalade.” How about I call it specious bullshit, and say your mouth is full of it? ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/56 "2007-04-11T16:12:09Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] But . . . do you not agree as to the posters (self included) who have suggested with great specificity “what else” can be done to and with Nifong and Mangum and the City of Durham? Or is the _nolle prosequi_ decision literally, in your mind, the “ultimate” (meaning final) outcome, and all that should happen? [/QUOTE] I think both Nifong and Mangum should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I think Nifong should be disbarred. But I do think that having the charges dropped is, in fact a good/just thing for the Duke students. In the overarching context of a horrible, wrong thing, yes. But better than having to go forward with a trial. Of course, I didn’t take part in the previous “Lying Whore” thread, so perhaps I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/57 "2007-04-11T16:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] I think both Nifong and Mangum should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I think Nifong should be disbarred. But I do think that having the charges dropped is, in fact a good/just thing for the Duke students. In the overarching context of a horrible, wrong thing, yes. But better than having to go forward with a trial. [/QUOTE] I can’t speak for the falsely accused students, and I can’t imagine what it would be like to be in their position. Also a trial would just cost more money. But, and this is a big one, it would expose the accuser for the liar that she is, and show to the world that the “evidence” of guilt was manufactured from whole cloth. As it stands, there are powerful, influential groups who will continue to maintain that the accused were guilty of horrible crimes, and only “got off” because they were white, and privileged. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/58 "2007-04-11T16:27:41Z")
Man, I am astounded at the difficulty some people around here have admitting they were wrong. Let me spell out the process I’ve gone through in regards to this case. I never posted an early opinion on this case because I didn’t think there was anything to all this hubbub. Like **you with the face** , I found it hard to believe a DA would so publicly push a false case, because a false case would inevitably fall apart. Man, oh man, was I ever proven wrong. The evidence has long since shown that Nifong did indeed pull this entire case out of his ass, all in a cynical (and, sadder to say, successful) attempt to get the black vote. Because of this astounding corruption of the justice system for personal advancement, I now believe that not only should he be disbarred and removed from office, he should be charged with very serious crimes, convicted, and sent to jail for a very, very long time. As in ten to twenty years. Our justice system depends on its integrity, and those who break it should be judged harshly. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/59 "2007-04-11T16:28:23Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Also a trial would just cost more money. But, and this is a big one, it would expose the accuser for the liar that she is, and show to the world that the “evidence” of guilt was manufactured from whole cloth. [/QUOTE] I disagree. I don’t think the cost and stress of a trial would be worth it, personally. It seems as though the accuser has been pretty fully exposed as a liar by now. > [@](#): > > As it stands, there are powerful, influential groups who will continue to maintain that the accused were guilty of horrible crimes, and only “got off” because they were white, and privileged. Has any group actually continued making such a claim? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607/60 "2007-04-11T16:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=Orual] Has any group actually continued making such a claim? [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The state NAACP, meanwhile, maintained its record of using the case to abandon 70 years of positions on criminal justice issues. Rev. Curtis Gatewood, president of the Durham NAACP from 1994 until 2002, described the State Bar’s ethics charges as part of a “conspiracy to disrupt justice in this Durham case.” And state NAACP head Rev. William Barber, invited to preach in the Duke Chapel by his “good friend,” Duke Chaplain and CCI member Sam Wells, continued the organization’s practice of lionizing the accuser and demonizing the lacrosse players. Several people in attendance walked out during his sermon. [From here.](http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/search?q=NAACP) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-now-finally-chew-the-lying-stripper-a-new-one/399607.md?page=4)