# Can we please not call Joseph Rosenbaum a "hero"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657 "2021-11-20T04:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/41 "2021-11-24T17:26:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > More judges need to do this. The _Judge_ needs to be impartial, favoring neither side. Otherwise, the trial is a sham. As this one one was. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/42 "2021-11-24T17:33:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The prosecution had evidence that discredited this defense. They had a video, taken shortly before Rittenhouse shot the victims, in which he talked about how he wished he could shoot some people he saw in the street. This is strong evidence that Rittenhouse was acting on prior intent. But Judge Schroeder wouldn’t allow it to be entered as evidence at the trial That was irrelevant to the case, which is why the judge correctly dismissed it. Just as if Rosenbaum had survived his assault on Rittenhouse, his criminal past would not be relevant in a potential trial. What is relevant is the video proof of an unprovoked attack on Rittenhouse, which justified him defending himself - something he did with the gun he was legally carrying. Even if he’d attended the event with the intention of killing someone, it doesn’t matter as he at no point attacked or threatened anyone. That’s not opinion, that’s fact, and there is video evidence and multiple witnesses - including the evidence of the guy who survived being shot - to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/43 "2021-11-24T17:34:40Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > The _Judge_ needs to be impartial, favoring neither side. Otherwise, the trial is a sham. As this one one was. False. They need to ensure the necessary bias of the court in favour of the defendant is maintained. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/44 "2021-11-24T17:39:55Z")
_There’s_ that right-wing spin that completely misses the point and the mark that we’ve all grown to love and expect from you, @octopus. With very few exceptions, there is no one on the Left who actually thinks that the police should be defunded. What the Left wants is a smarter allocation of the funds given to police forces so that situations don’t arise where someone is killed by a cop instead of being taken into custody. You really need to get a better quality of misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/45 "2021-11-24T17:48:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > False. They need to ensure the necessary bias of the court in favour of the defendant is maintained. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The Judge’s only concern should be the law, not the players. Innocent until proven guilty is in no way bias or _favor._ Any Judge who shows favor, one way or the other, should be removed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/46 "2021-11-24T18:00:08Z")
Yes. The Police dept had a racist liar giving testimony, which meant _reasonable doubt._ The jury was right. The civil trial for the death went forward, as they do not have to prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/47 "2021-11-24T18:32:04Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > even a foregone conclusion doesn’t seem mutually exclusive to a tragedy. To me a tragedy is not planned. It’s like calling it an accident when someone intentionally drives against traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/48 "2021-11-24T19:05:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Even if he’d attended the event with the intention of killing someone, it doesn’t matter as he at no point attacked or threatened anyone. So Rittenhouse says on video that he would like to travel to a riot scene with a rifle and shoot some people. Two weeks later he travels to a riot scene with a rifle and shoots some people. But you’re convinced that this is an amazing coincidence and Rittenhouse would not have shot anyone if three different people had not individually forced Rittenhouse to shoot them. Because apparently all of them wanted to be shot. Do you also believe Jack the Ripper had no intention to kill anyone and he was just the blameless victim of a bunch of women throwing themselves on to the knife he happened to be holding? Those women after all had criminal records, so they must have been looking to get stabbed. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/49 "2021-11-24T19:06:12Z")
> [@Ranch\_Dip](#): > > To me a tragedy is not planned. It’s like calling it an accident when someone intentionally drives against traffic. Well, if you mistakenly equate the words tragedy and accident, there’s not much I can do for you. Someone driving the wrong way in traffic intentionally or not is still a tragedy in the making. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/50 "2021-11-24T19:06:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The prosecution had evidence that discredited this defense. They had a video, taken shortly before Rittenhouse shot the victims, in which he talked about how he wished he could shoot some people he saw in the street. This is strong evidence that Rittenhouse was acting on prior intent. But Judge Schroeder wouldn’t allow it to be entered as evidence at the trial. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/51 "2021-11-24T19:13:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > CNN settled with Mr. Sandmann for $275 Million Sandman’s attorneys **sought** $275M in their suit. The suit was settled. Suits rarely settle for the amount originally sought. So it’s very unlikely that he got (anywhere near) $275M. But he definitely got **[something](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cnn-covington-settlement/)**. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/52 "2021-11-24T20:06:05Z")
Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/53 "2021-11-24T20:27:54Z")
Sorry, I don’t give the opinions of idle playboys much weight. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/54 "2021-11-24T20:40:21Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > > [@Ranch\_Dip](#): > > > > To me a tragedy is not planned. It’s like calling it an accident when someone intentionally drives against traffic. > > Well, if you mistakenly equate the words tragedy and accident, there’s not much I can do for you. Someone driving the wrong way in traffic intentionally or not is still a tragedy in the making. Agreed. A personal definition that differs from the common usage is not something to take umbrage with. If I state that every pizza has to have pepperoni, and I yell at a pizza restaurant that they are not serving people real pizza if there is no pepperoni on it, that just means I’m wrong, an idiot, and possibly not mentally well. A tragedy is an event that causes suffering. Many crimes lead to tragedies. This is frankly an ignorant position to take. > **[Definition of TRAGEDY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tragedy#examples)** > > a disastrous event : calamity; misfortune; a serious drama typically describing a conflict between the protagonist and a superior force (such as destiny) and having a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion that elicits pity or terror… See the full... For crying out loud, Merriam-Webster uses a gunman shooting two people as an example of properly using the word in a sentence. You’d better write a stern letter to them to set them straight. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/55 "2021-11-24T21:45:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? > **[Kyle Rittenhouse dreamed about shooting people days before Kenosha: video](https://nypost.com/2021/08/20/kyle-rittenhouse-dreamed-about-shooting-people-days-before-kenosha-video/)** > > Prosecutors want to use a video at trial that caught Kyle Rittenhouse fantasizing about gunning down a man just 15 days before he shot three protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin. > **[State seeks to admit video of Rittenhouse in separate incident threatening to...](https://kenoshanews.com/news/local/state-seeks-to-admit-video-of-rittenhouse-in-separate-incident-threatening-to-shoot-men-with/article_cddeb29f-5a86-5151-ab20-a3834456304e.html)** > > Two weeks before he shot three people in Kenosha, killing two, Kyle Rittenhouse was captured on video threatening to shoot men he believed were shoplifting at a pharmacy, according to > **['I'd start shooting': New video appears to show Kyle Rittenhouse before...](https://www.wisn.com/article/new-video-appears-to-show-kyle-rittenhouse-before-kenosha-killings/37351942#)** > > A new video obtained by prosecutors purportedly shows a man believed to be Kyle Rittenhouse threatening to shoot a man before deadly unrest in Kenosha. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/56 "2021-11-24T22:40:02Z")
_They claim it shows Rittenhouse 15 days before the Kenosha unrest outside a drug store._ _He watches people he believed were shoplifting._ _“It looks like one of them has a weapon,” the man believed to be Rittenhouse says in the video. “I wish I had my (expletive) AR. I’d start shooting rounds at them.”_ _There’s no explanation in the court filing on where the video was shot or how prosecutors obtained it._ > **[Jury Won't Hear Evidence Of Kyle Rittenhouse's Proud Boys Connections](https://www.wpr.org/jury-wont-hear-evidence-kyle-rittenhouses-proud-boys-connections)** > > A jury in the trial of a man who fatally shot two people during protests in Kenosha won't hear evidence that a far-right nationalist group rallied to the defense of Kyle Rittenhouse in the weeks after the shootings. _In a hearing Friday, Kenosha County Circuit Court Judge Bruce Schroeder withheld a final decision on whether he would admit evidence that Rittenhouse said two weeks before the shootings that he wished he had his gun so he could shoot criminals. But Schroeder said he found the circumstance of those statements by Rittenhouse “so dissimilar” to the crimes he is accused of that Schroeder likely wouldn’t allow that evidence in the trial._ There is also no proof it was Rittenhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/57 "2021-11-24T22:54:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But Schroeder said he found the circumstance of those statements by Rittenhouse “so dissimilar” to the crimes he is accused of that Schroeder likely wouldn’t allow that evidence in the trial. Yes, I see how dissimilar those circumstances were. Rittenhouse says he wishes he had his rifle in the first situation because he wanted to shoot some people he saw in the street. In the second situation, he had his rifle and actually shot some people he saw in the street. So totally different. I guess your point is we shouldn’t just judge Rittenhouse by the way he shot three people one day. We should consider all of the days when he didn’t shoot even a single person. Although, as he admits, on some of those days the reason he didn’t shoot people because he didn’t have his gun handy. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/58 "2021-11-24T23:08:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So Rittenhouse says on video that he would like to travel to a riot scene with a rifle and shoot some people. Where did this video come from? I watched it, expecting to see Rittenhouse, but he never actually appears in the clip. Did the video come from his phone, or that of a friend? P.S. - The only one of your links I can open is the New York Post one, so apologies in advance if this question was answered in one of the other articles. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/59 "2021-11-24T23:12:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > {…} _But Schroeder said he found the circumstance of those statements by Rittenhouse “so dissimilar” to the crimes he is accused of that Schroeder likely wouldn’t allow that evidence in the trial._ > > There is also no proof it was Rittenhouse. If there was no proof it was Rittenhouse then the circumstances of those statements being “so dissimilar” to the crimes he is accused of are irrelevant. I guess I could see that the judge was 'crossing his 'I’s and dotting his 'T’s but not being able to positively identify it as Rittenhouse ends the question at the start. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657/60 "2021-11-25T00:00:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But you’re convinced that this is an amazing coincidence and Rittenhouse would not have shot anyone if three different people had not individually forced Rittenhouse to shoot them. Because apparently all of them wanted to be shot. Whether or not Rittenhouse wanted to shoot people is irrelevant. What is relevant - and the only thing that is relevant - is whether or not he killed these particular people in self defence, which he did. He did nothing to threaten them, noithing to suggest to them that he wanted to shoot them, and indeed tried to run away when attacked rather than shoot them. You want him punished for his political views, not for his entirely legal and moral actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-call-joseph-rosenbaum-a-hero/954657.md?page=4)