# Can we please not do this again (Zimmerman media circus)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289 "2014-02-13T23:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/181 "2014-02-18T21:28:39Z")
Florida’s retarded gun laws that coddles people when they recite the magic words, “I was in fear for my life.” ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/182 "2014-02-18T21:32:25Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Florida’s retarded gun laws that coddles people when they recite the magic words, “I was in fear for my life.” So your opinion is largely driven by your unacknowledged factual inaccuracies (they never left the parking lot) and your caricature of self defense law? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/183 "2014-02-18T21:39:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The witness who testified there was a shotgun was not a neutral witness. No, absolutely, he was the defendant, and his claim that there was a gun means it has to be proven that there wasn’t one. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Florida’s retarded gun laws that coddles people when they recite the magic words, “I was in fear for my life.” Those horrible, horrible laws, protecting people in fear for their lives! What a terrible thing for the law to do! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/184 "2014-02-18T21:40:35Z")
No caricature; a valid opinion. Florida goes out of their way to make gun-nuts feel like they have every right to shoot people the second they feel uncomfortable about things, like loud music, gangsta-shuffling and popcorn. As far as “not leaving the parking lot,” I don’t have the specific particulars on hand, but I recall reading they they returned to the parking lot in which the shooting occurred in mere minutes. The “plaza” they drove to wasn’t miles away and there were witnesses there who said they saw no gun stashing; and in fact, if the boys were panicking and checking their buddy, and returned as soon as they realized how fucked up he was … \*when \*the fuck could they have stashed the non-existant gun. The fact remains … with no gun in the SUV, Dunn is a fucking murderer (Florida’s “go ahead and kill them if you’re ascared” laws notwithstanding). So all the NRA warriors here are clinging to this notion that there must have been a gun in the SUV. Otherwise, their hero becomes the fucking douche-bag that we already know he is. This - like the Zimmerman/Martin case - is classic blaming the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/185 "2014-02-18T21:48:50Z")
You do realise that _Zimmerman_ was the victim in that case, right? And yet people like you continue to blame him… I’ve no idea why you hate that people have a right to defend themselves. I can only guess you’ve never actually been threatened with violence. Oh, and you do realise that even if it were proven that there was no gun, it doesn’t necessarily make him a murder, right? What matters is whether he had reason to believe there was one, and he was being threatened by it. Right to self defence, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/186 "2014-02-18T21:52:42Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No caricature; a valid opinion. Florida goes out of their way to make gun-nuts feel like they have every right to shoot people the second they feel uncomfortable about things, like loud music, gangsta-shuffling and popcorn. How? > [@](#): > > As far as “not leaving the parking lot,” I don’t have the specific particulars on hand, but I recall reading they they returned to the parking lot in which the shooting occurred in mere minutes. The “plaza” they drove to wasn’t miles away and there were witnesses there who said they saw no gun stashing; and in fact, if the boys were panicking and checking their buddy, and returned as soon as they realized how fucked up he was … \*when \*the fuck could they have stashed the non-existant gun. I see, so by “There’s no way and no place the victims of this crime could have stashed a shot-gun somewhere in the parking lot they never left.” You really meant, “they did leave the parking lot, and stopped for a short time a short distance away, but although there was obviously now a way and place to stash the gun, you don’t believe that they did stash the gun because you think they were panicking and a witnesses didn’t see a gun stashing.” But, of course, you can’t declare your opinion as forcefully as claiming definitive proof of something and so you opted to misrepresent the known facts in order to solidfy your stance on the contested facts. > [@](#): > > So all the NRA warriors here are clinging to this notion that there must have been a gun in the SUV. Otherwise, their hero becomes the fucking douche-bag that we already know he is. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here or elsewhere declaring this fellow to be a “hero.” And, actually, I’ve only seen one person suggest that there actually was a gun in the SUV. I don’t think of myself as an NRA warrior, but maybe I am and so I’m missing it. But it seems to me that the greater tendency is to use fake factual claims and silly legal claims (as well as the requisite ranting about race) to attack laws (and people) you’ve already decided you don’t like and to avoid the possibility that state failed to meet its burden under long established principles. > [@](#): > > This - like the Zimmerman/Martin case - is classic blaming the victim. All self defense cases are blaming the victim (by both sides). ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/187 "2014-02-18T21:53:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You do realise that _Zimmerman_ was the victim in that case, right? And yet people like you continue to blame him… I’ve no idea why you hate that people have a right to defend themselves. I can only guess you’ve never actually been threatened with violence. If you want my opinion on Zimmerman, go back over that train-wreck of a thread. I’m not going to re-argue this bullshit with you. You obviously only give a shit about all these sterling gun owners who get railroaded into shooting people when they get a bug up their ass and decide that they’re just about to die … even when that is so far from the truth as to be laughable. And I’m not interested in dancing that tango again. Edit to add: not only have been threatened with violence, I’ve been a victim of violence and yet I have precisely zero kills under my belt. Odd that, huh? I must be fucking superhuman or something. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/188 "2014-02-18T21:59:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, and you do realise that even if it were proven that there was no gun, it doesn’t necessarily make him a murder, right? What matters is whether he had reason to believe there was one, and he was being threatened by it. Right to self defence, remember? Wouldn’t really even need to see one, would he? Four black guys in a car, odds are at least one of them will be packing. We’ve all watched the news, right? I’d be in fear for my life before I even got out of the car to go confront them about their loud music, but this is how heroes are forged. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/189 "2014-02-18T21:59:58Z")
The next time I meet a republican, I’m going to bloodily beat him to death and then claim he pointed a nuclear weapon at me. I’m sure to get off. I mean, how will they ever prove he _didn’t_ have a nuclear warhead? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/190 "2014-02-18T22:00:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, absolutely, he was the defendant, and his claim that there was a gun means it has to be proven that there wasn’t one. Do you believe it is possible to prove a negative? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/191 "2014-02-18T22:04:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, absolutely, he was the defendant, and his claim that there was a gun means it has to be proven that there wasn’t one. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. In affirmative defense cases, the defendant must establish by a preponderance of evidence that a reasonable person would believe they needed to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/192 "2014-02-18T22:08:26Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Self-defense is an affirmative defense. In affirmative defense cases, the defendant must establish by a preponderance of evidence that a reasonable person would believe they needed to defend themselves. That is not true in any US state but Ohio. Everywhere else, the defendant has to produce “some” (really any) evidence of justification and the government needs to disprove it beyond a resonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/193 "2014-02-18T22:10:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you believe it is possible to prove a negative? In this context, obviously yes. An exhaustive search would have likely have been sufficient. The standard is beyond reasonable doubt, not logical certainty. Now I’ll ask you a question - why do you think the defendant should have to prove his innocence, when that is supposed to be presumed? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/194 "2014-02-18T22:13:14Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If you want my opinion on Zimmerman, go back over that train-wreck of a thread. I’m not going to re-argue this bullshit with you. Your opinion was demonstrably, provably wrong in that case. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The facts are that Martin beat Zimmerman and was legally killed in self defence. The trial made Zimmerman’s innocence plain to anyone with half a brain. The prosecution had no real evidence and didn’t even try. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/195 "2014-02-18T22:13:20Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > That is not true in any US state but Ohio. Everywhere else, the defendant has to produce “some” (really any) evidence of justification and the government needs to disprove it beyond a resonable doubt. Upon further study, it appears that you are correct. I withdraw my point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/196 "2014-02-18T22:15:57Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Wouldn’t really even need to see one, would he? Four black guys in a car, odds are at least one of them will be packing. We’ve all watched the news, right? > > I’d be in fear for my life before I even got out of the car to go confront them about their loud music, but this is how heroes are forged. If I ever go to Florida I’ll assume everybody is armed… and act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/197 "2014-02-18T22:17:10Z")
Why does it matter if a gun was in the car or not? The mere presence of a gun does not mean it was brandished, nor does it mean the defendant had a legitimate cause to fear imminent harm. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/198 "2014-02-18T22:18:18Z")
Careful. Dunn got 60 years for that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/199 "2014-02-18T22:23:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Now I’ll ask you a question - why do you think the defendant should have to prove his innocence, when that is supposed to be presumed? Because he shot and killed an unarmed teenager. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/200 "2014-02-18T22:24:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If I ever go to Florida I’ll assume everybody is armed… and act accordingly. “Cede to the demands of drunken strangers lest they kill me,” or “shoot anyone who even looks at me cross-eyed”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=11)