# Can we please not do this again (Zimmerman media circus)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289 "2014-02-13T23:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/321 "2014-02-21T06:26:24Z")
I’ll just add that until we hear more explanations from the jury as to why they made their decision(if we ever do since none are under any obligation to step forward) we should hold off before assuming why they made their decisions. We haven’t heard from either of the initial two jurors who voted not guilty on the murder charge or the third one who joined in, nor do we know anything about them. We don’t know their ages, occupations, education levels, genders, or even races(yeah I’m sure most of us assume they’re white, but we certainly don’t know that and shouldn’t assume that). It’s certainly possible, though unlikely the initial jurors who voted no were the only two black jurors. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/322 "2014-02-21T06:28:32Z")
i don’t know if it has been pointed out, i assume it has, but the best way to “not do this again” would be to not make a Zimmerman thread, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/323 "2014-02-21T06:42:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, it does have to take all the guns out of the hands of undesireables IF it is accompanied by strict limits on gun possession by the rest of us. But you didn’t propose that. That’s a totally unreasonable standard, and is never going to be achieved - you will never get all of the guns out of the hands of all of the undesirables - even countries with strong gun control laws, and historically low rates of gun ownership have not achieved this. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/324 "2014-02-21T06:44:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I would too - except that cannot possibly happen. We will never get to a point where we can be sure criminals, let alone the rest, aren’t likely to have guns. I support both those policies, but they won’t make us a weapon-free paradise. How are you going to define likely? If you could reduce the amount by 80% or 90% would this be good enough? Or does it have to be 99%? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/325 "2014-02-21T14:55:42Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > How are you going to define likely? > > If you could reduce the amount by 80% or 90% would this be good enough? Or does it have to be 99%? It’s not going to be 80%. Or 50%. You might get to 20%, but I doubt it. We could have a data duel over that, but I think it’s really naive to even think you’d be able to substantially reduce gun possession with things like background checks. Most guns possessed illegally are simply stolen or bought from those who stole or smuggled them, not legal purchases. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/326 "2014-02-21T14:57:09Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > That’s a totally unreasonable standard, and is never going to be achieved - you will never get all of the guns out of the hands of all of the undesirables - even countries with strong gun control laws, and historically low rates of gun ownership have not achieved this. You’re welcome to create your own standard, but I’m saying you won’t achieve it. You won’t get meaningful reduction in gun possession with these laws alone. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/327 "2014-02-21T15:11:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Most guns possessed illegally are simply stolen or bought from those who stole or smuggled them, not legal purchases. [You are mistaken.](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html) > [@](#): > > An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners’ homes and cars. “Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes,” Wachtel said. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/328 "2014-02-21T15:14:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [You are mistaken.](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html) I didn’t say stolen guns are the only source. I said most aren’t legal purchases. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/329 "2014-02-21T15:17:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I didn’t say stolen guns are the only source. You said most were stolen. How do you propose to reduce illegal purchases? Wouldn’t tighter regulation and enforcement be warranted? How are comprehensive background checks not a part of that? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/330 "2014-02-21T15:39:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You said most were stolen. I said more than that. The point is that most are not from legal sales that a background check could stop. > [@](#): > > How do you propose to reduce illegal purchases? Wouldn’t tighter regulation and enforcement be warranted? How are comprehensive background checks not a part of that? They are a PART of it, sure, but not sufficient. This is where the two possible solutions diverge. You could seriously crack down on gun possession. Or you could deter illegal use of guns by relaxing gun possession laws for self-defense. I don’t think background checks alone are enough to satisfy either side of that debate. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/331 "2014-02-21T15:45:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is where the two possible solutions diverge. You could seriously crack down on gun possession. Or you could deter illegal use of guns by relaxing gun possession laws for self-defense. Those are not the only options. Since most guns used in crimes come from illegal sales by legal gun dealers, clearly licensed gun dealers should be subject to more regulation and enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/332 "2014-02-21T16:28:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Those are not the only options. Since most guns used in crimes come from illegal sales by legal gun dealers, clearly licensed gun dealers should be subject to more regulation and enforcement. Absolutely. I still don’t think you can get it to the point where law-abiding people can walk around thinking they are always going to be safer from gun violence than they might be if they had the option to arm themselves in self-defense, depending on the neighborhood of course. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/333 "2014-02-21T20:12:27Z")
Because self defense is an illusion. I am just waiting for the case where two guys scare each other, draw guns and wound each other, and both claim self defense. I do not want to devolve into a society where justice goes to the guy with the fastest trigger finger. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/334 "2014-02-21T20:57:59Z")
Having been humiliatingly pwned by 10-year-olds in Call of Duty, I must agree. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/335 "2014-02-21T21:04:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because self defense is an illusion. I am just waiting for the case where two guys scare each other, draw guns and wound each other, and both claim self defense. I do not want to devolve into a society where justice goes to the guy with the fastest trigger finger. In the rather unlikely scenario that two people _do_ manage to put each other in imminent fear of death, without either breaking the law, what should the law say regarding self defence? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/336 "2014-02-21T21:51:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > In the rather unlikely scenario that two people _do_ manage to put each other in imminent fear of death, without either breaking the law, what should the law say regarding self defence? You didn’t ask me, but personally I’d breathe a lot easier if the law made it abundantly clear to good guys and drunken assholes alike that deadly force shouldn’t be considered a first resort in any conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/337 "2014-02-21T22:16:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > In the rather unlikely scenario that two people _do_ manage to put each other in imminent fear of death, without either breaking the law, what should the law say regarding self defence? The burden of proof should be on anyone firing a gun to prove it was self defense. If gunslingers want to claim they are the victim of a crime and were defending themselves, they don’t leave the scene and go back to their motel without calling the police. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/338 "2014-02-21T22:30:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The burden of proof should be on anyone firing a gun to prove it was self defense. If gunslingers want to claim they are the victim of a crime and were defending themselves, they don’t leave the scene and go back to their motel without calling the police. Nope. The burden of proof that someone’s committed a crime should always, and solely, be on the state. But now we’re back to where we started, ignoring basic rules like the presumption of innocence. There’s really no discussing this with people like you who don’t understand the necessity of such rules to protect ourselves, not to protect potential criminals. Self defence is a right, not a privilege, and should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/339 "2014-02-21T22:31:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Self defence is a right, not a privilege, and should be treated as such. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/340 "2014-02-21T22:36:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I disagree. Like hell you do. You just think you do. If someone was trying to kill you, you wouldn’t get permission before you fought back. OTOH, I think that using self-defense as a legal defense needs more proof than a simple claim that it was so. And I think the danger needs to be such that any reasonable person would also perceive the danger. The problem with that is that it threatens to open up a whole new branch of law, practically, and I’m not sure at all that that is a good idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=18)