# Can we please not do this again (Zimmerman media circus)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289 "2014-02-13T23:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/101 "2014-02-16T19:08:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You said it was OK to shoot someone who pointed a shotgun at you. If you are now claiming that statement was entirely unrelated to Dunn’s defense, I accept your retraction. On an unrelated note, I love the idea that Jordan Davis pointed a shotgun at Dunn, threatened to kill him, and then let Dunn walk back to his car, get his gun out of the car, turn around and start shooting up the car. Apparantly Davis was such an inept thug that rather than shooting the guy he had the drop on, he let himself get shot to death. The only thing missing from Dunn’s bullshit story was Davis clutching his chest, looking down at his chest, then back up at Dunn and then saying “you got me.” And toppling over. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/102 "2014-02-16T19:13:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > For those who haven’t been following the story detail by detail: > > The teenagers were listening to loud music. Michael Dunn told them to turn it down. Which they did. Then Jordan, being a typical teenaged male, made his friend turn it back up. He beat his chest a few times because that’s what androgens do in some people. > > Michael Dunn decides then to pump eleventy-billion gun shots into the car. The bullets just happened to hit Jordan, but they could have easily killed the other teens in the car. You know, the kids whose only sin was being in a car where loud music had been playing. For this, they get called thugs. > > I invite those who are curious to actually watch the footage from the trial and and judge for yourself whether these guys meet the criteria for “thug”. You forgot to add two things. 1. There were no overt actions or threats against Dunn. 2. Dunn didn’t bother to call the police. Instead, he went out and had pizza while the teen aged victim choked to death on his own blood. Then Dunn went home and went to bed. The police contacted him the next day. The only good to come out of this is that Dunn will spend the rest of his life in prison surrounded by real thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/103 "2014-02-16T19:18:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, exactly that. I’d have the same opinion if it were a bunch of white skinheads blasting hardcore punk out and the guy asking them to turn it down was black. > > I doubt you’ll believe this, but not everything is about race. Most people just don’t care. > > Fuck it, if a group of nuns were blasting hymns out and didn’t turn it down in public when asked they’re arseholes. 1. When you say “white skinheads” I assume you’re talking about white supremacists, and that is in no way a valid alternative to a random bunch of kids. The scenario you set up is not in any way comparable to or equivalent to what happened IRL. 2. In the scenario you described, as long as it wasn’t at night when loud noise is proscribed, then the nuns are not arseholes for not turning it down in public when asked. They have as much right to exist in public as the next person, and if they want to be loud, then they should be loud. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/104 "2014-02-16T19:20:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Who was the “thug” who “got killed”? Are you using that term to describe the victim? Why? Someone killed in self defence isn’t a victim. If the next trial has a different verdict I’ll change what I say. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/105 "2014-02-16T19:39:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone killed in self defence isn’t a victim. If the next trial has a different verdict I’ll change what I say. The jury didn’t rule he was “not guilty” of murder. Beyond that is your position then that had the jury voted 12-0 guilty as opposed to 11-1(or whatever the breakdown was) that Davis wasn’t a thug even if all the other facts stayed the same? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/106 "2014-02-16T20:10:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > 1. When you say “white skinheads” I assume you’re talking about white supremacists, and that is in no way a valid alternative to a random bunch of kids. The scenario you set up is not in any way comparable to or equivalent to what happened IRL. No, I’m not, at least not specifically - interesting that you prejudge skinhead punks that way. If they _were_, and they threatened the hypothetical black man who asked them to turn it down, I’d have no sympathy with them if they got shot. Same with any other thugs, regardless of race or whatever. > [@](#): > > 1. In the scenario you described, as long as it wasn’t at night when loud noise is proscribed, then the nuns are not arseholes for not turning it down in public when asked. They have as much right to exist in public as the next person, and if they want to be loud, then they should be loud. No they shouldn’t. It may not be illegal, although in many places it is illegal to play loud music from a vehicle, but it is antisocial, to put it mildly. So, of course, is shooting after a van that’s driving away from you. There’s enough blame for everybody in this story to share some. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/107 "2014-02-16T20:16:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The jury didn’t rule he was “not guilty” of murder. > > Beyond that is your position then that had the jury voted 12-0 guilty as opposed to 11-1(or whatever the breakdown was) that Davis wasn’t a thug even if all the other facts stayed the same? Call him what you like, I’ve little sympathy for someone who acts like a dick and pays the price. If it’s actually determined he was murdered or otherwise killed illegally I’l be happy to call him a victim. As well as a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/108 "2014-02-16T21:35:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Call him what you like, I’ve little sympathy for someone who acts like a dick and pays the price. If it’s actually determined he was murdered or otherwise killed illegally I’l be happy to call him a victim. As well as a dick. It’s mind boggling that anyone doesn’t actually want that piece of crap Dunn in prison for a million years. Almost as mind boggling as someone who thinks a rude kid deserves the death penalty for playing loud music. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/109 "2014-02-16T21:39:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Call him what you like, I’ve little sympathy for someone who acts like a dick and pays the price. If it’s actually determined he was murdered or otherwise killed illegally I’l be happy to call him a victim. As well as a dick. Why have you suddenly decided that rather than being a “thug” he was merely a “dick”? Please tell me what evidence has caused you to rethink your earlier claim that he was a “thug”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/110 "2014-02-16T21:50:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s mind boggling that anyone doesn’t actually want that piece of crap Dunn in prison for a million years. Almost as mind boggling as someone who thinks a rude kid deserves the death penalty for playing loud music. It’s mind boggling that you can’t read and have missed the several times I’ve said it’s good that he’s in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/111 "2014-02-16T21:51:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why have you suddenly decided that rather than being a “thug” he was merely a “dick”? > > Please tell me what evidence has caused you to rethink your earlier claim that he was a “thug”. They’re not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/112 "2014-02-16T23:27:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Call him what you like, I’ve little sympathy for someone who acts like a dick and pays the price. Call me old-fashioned, but ISTM that the appropriate ‘price’ for dickitude shouldn’t go beyond an old-fashioned ass-whupping. So, could you kindly explain why you think death is an appropriate price for someone to pay for being an asshole with their radio? > [@](#): > > If it’s actually determined he was murdered or otherwise killed illegally I’ll be happy to call him a victim. Look, apparently all that matters under the FL SYG law is that it couldn’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Dunn _[didn’t](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/16/michael_dunns_sick_license_to_kill_hot_blooded_murder_of_jordan_davis_and_floridas_perverted_justice/)_ fear great bodily harm, or worse. That doesn’t change the fact that Davis got killed for doing nothing but playing the car radio loudly. I’d call that “being a victim.” If you want to be\*\* Bricker\*\* Jr. and substitute a rather twisted law for your own moral judgment, then that says a great deal about you, but nothing about whether Davis should be considered a victim by reasonable human beings. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/113 "2014-02-17T00:09:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Call me old-fashioned, but ISTM that the appropriate ‘price’ for dickitude shouldn’t go beyond an old-fashioned ass-whupping. > > So, could you kindly explain why you think death is an appropriate price for someone to pay for being an asshole with their radio? Look, apparently all that matters under the FL SYG law is that it couldn’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Dunn _[didn’t](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/16/michael_dunns_sick_license_to_kill_hot_blooded_murder_of_jordan_davis_and_floridas_perverted_justice/)_ fear great bodily harm, or worse. > > That doesn’t change the fact that Davis got killed for doing nothing but playing the car radio loudly. I’d call that “being a victim.” If you want to be\*\* Bricker\*\* Jr. and substitute a rather twisted law for your own moral judgment, then that says a great deal about you, but nothing about whether Davis should be considered a victim by reasonable human beings. This was not a stand your ground case. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/114 "2014-02-17T00:15:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m not, at least not specifically - interesting that you prejudge skinhead punks that way. If they _were_, and they threatened the hypothetical black man who asked them to turn it down, I’d have no sympathy with them if they got shot. Same with any other thugs, regardless of race or whatever. Sorry, I don’t believe you. You specifically called them white skinheads, thus invoking race. You furthered that by adding in a black man who feels antagonized by them. Your current attempt to spin your own words as being non-racially charged does not in any way ring true. Your attempt to demonize me for calling out your own words is pathetic and reflects poorly on you. > [@Steophan](#): > > No they shouldn’t. It may not be illegal, although in many places it is illegal to play loud music from a vehicle, but it is antisocial, to put it mildly. > > So, of course, is shooting after a van that’s driving away from you. There’s enough blame for everybody in this story to share some. Actually, obeying the law is pretty social. What’s anti-social is thinking that you deserve a special place in society, where you can ask people to do things and they must comply, because it’s not so much asking as it is demanding they follow your orders. ETA: and yeah, shooting into a van full of unarmed people as it tries to get away from you is more than a little antisocial. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/115 "2014-02-17T00:20:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Call him what you like, I’ve little sympathy for someone who acts like a dick and pays the price. If it’s actually determined he was murdered or otherwise killed illegally I’l be happy to call him a victim. As well as a dick. Is the price for acting like a dick set in your book, or is it on some kind of sliding scale according to what you can get away with? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/116 "2014-02-17T02:44:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Shame, there’s a lot you could learn. Ah, yes. The life of a bitter little punk, living in his Mom’s house and mooching off the government and everyone else. What could anyone learn except not to be you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/117 "2014-02-17T04:11:48Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > This was not a stand your ground case. But it was, much more clearly than the Zimmerman/Martin case. Discussed [here](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/16/michael_dunns_sick_license_to_kill_hot_blooded_murder_of_jordan_davis_and_floridas_perverted_justice/). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/118 "2014-02-17T06:54:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What I don’t get here is, suppose there had been a gun in the car - then so what? People apparently have a right to carry guns in public places. I’m not happy about that, but it is what it is. > > But if the mere exercise of that right means some guy who starts an argument with you, and is also exercising that right, isn’t murdering you when he blows you away, then ISTM that we’ve got a problem here. > > Are SYG and the right to carry compatible, or do they inherently lead to situations where people exercising their Second Amendment rights can kill other people doing the same because once you introduce an everyday altercation into things, everyone quite legitimately feels threatened because the other party has a gun and might use it? Well it’s like Heinlein said (via Lazarus Long): _an armed society is a polite society._ While that may have some truth to it, there’s no guarantee that the transition from rude to polite is instantaneous upon the introduction of arms, and there’s a huge potential for a lot of bloodshed and misery before the transition takes hold. Kinda the same problem as is presented by the Libertarian notion of letting market forces deal with potential harms that may be brought about by an under-regulated economic environment. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/119 "2014-02-17T07:30:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well it’s like Heinlein said (via Lazarus Long): _an armed society is a polite society._ While that may have some truth to it, there’s no guarantee that the transition from rude to polite is instantaneous upon the introduction of arms, and there’s a huge potential for a lot of bloodshed and misery before the transition takes hold. > > Kinda the same problem as is presented by the Libertarian notion of letting market forces deal with potential harms that may be brought about by an under-regulated economic environment. And that’s why it was so very polite for Zimmerman to follow and then accost Martin that night…because he was armed he was so much politer? And that’s why it was so very polite for this moron to try to force a teenager to turn down his “thug” music…because he was armed? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/120 "2014-02-17T07:56:16Z")
I may be misapprehending you, but your response seems to be sort of rebuttal-flavored. If that was your intent, let me apologize for being unclear, and clarify my meaning by saying that I find Heinlein’s little proverb to be facile and simplistic, and that I was referencing it for ironic effect. If I _was_ misapprehending your intent, then please forgive me for THAT. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289.md?page=7)