# Can we really fight ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301 "2004-05-15T18:36:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/21 "2004-05-16T06:59:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We can fight ignorance, but we can’t get **Lib** a sense of humor. 😛 Oops, sorry, I forgot. When liberals do stupid shit, we’re supposed to just laugh it off. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/22 "2004-05-16T07:21:45Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > “Natural causes” describes a death that is not due to illness or injury. Cancer does not qualify. Did you go and get stupid or something? That _is_ the definition of [“natural causes”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_causes). > [@](#): > > Natural causes is a biological term which describes a state of death which occurs without apparent reason, such as by disease or injury. Death by natural causes occurs almost always in old age. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/23 "2004-05-16T07:38:52Z")
That was a great post, **Epimetheus**. I agree all the way. **litost** , How about all those scary threads against Jewish people? [see ‘great debates’]. Do you think that to feed stereo-typing Jews and sly accusations towards Israel, helps fighting ignorance? Or do you think these kind of posts will actually feed some sub-concious anti semitism? _Once again, FYI: I’m not Jewish, I’m an atheïst, and a peace-loving left-winger who knows what hating other people can do. No, I shall not use a ‘Godwin’_ [btw: As alien as **Libertarian** ’s thoughts are to me, I \*do \* think he has a good sense of humor.] ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/24 "2004-05-16T08:22:39Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > If it makes you feel any better, Squink, knowledge and compassion don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand. I mean, really… Dr. Wily was pretty smart, and all he did was create deathbots to destroy the world. You just made this thread a brighter place for me. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/25 "2004-05-16T12:00:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oops, sorry, I forgot. When **liberals** do stupid shit, **we’re** supposed to just laugh it off. The name change is kinda hard to deal with, **Libertarian**.Why didn’t you change it to something a bit more truthful, like, um, **Crazy Fuck**? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/26 "2004-05-16T14:07:17Z")
> [@litost](#): > > I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought. This is exactly how it must have been going back 2000 years… in every country in every issue in every war. pro and anti fighting each other. It doesn’t matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both. Ignorance and hatred and mindlessness. I don’t think ignorance has ever lost or will ever lose. It doesn’t seem to have changed. > > The worst part is most people on both sides are just like you and me. Good people. But either one or both of them are blinded. Very saddening. > > Can we really fight and defeat ignorance? The fundamental problem is, while we are fighting ignorance on this message board, the Administration and its friends are using their control of the media to spew ignorance across the American culture. Ignorance isn’t just sitting there waiting to be correctly, it’s ACTIVELY FIGHTING BACK and it has a MUCH bigger megaphone than we do. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/27 "2004-05-16T14:37:47Z")
> [@ggurl](#): > > It’s unfortunate that some folks’ idea of “fighting ignorance” consists of insulting everyone who doesn’t think the same way they do. Why is that “unfortunate?” Assuming that the individual doing the “insulting” is, in fact, right thinking. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/28 "2004-05-16T14:57:24Z")
Then maybe we shouldn;t say anything bas about anything that anyone does. … We shouldn’t judge the members of Al Qaeda who sawed off Nick Berg’s head–maybe he was a rude guest to them. Perhaps he threatened them first. … we just don’t _know_. The guys who killed Matthew Shephard only did it once and after all, can we judge the entirety of a life by one act? And as a gay man, I’m ashamed that I ever said one mean thing about those poor boys, who were merely expressing their disapproval of homosexuals. If I criticise them, why, I’m just as bad as they are. Just ask the OP. And shouldn’t we just stop trying to impose racial equality throguh the courts? After all, some white people truly believe that non-whites are inferior to them, and since “It doesn’t matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both,” shouldn’t we allow segregation to be legal again? Remember that no viewpoint is any more right than any other, according to the OP, so every point of view is just as valid as any other, right? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/29 "2004-05-16T15:05:02Z")
Oh, does anyone have Fred Phelps’ address? I want to send him a contribution to further his work. I’m so embarrassed that I ever commented negatively on his campaign to rid America of the plague of homosexuality. He has every right to keep “making his voice heard in accordance with his worldview,” and it’s a shame that any gay person should ever contradict him or attempt to combat his activism. According to **Litost** and **Liberal** , Phelps’ belief that “God hates fags” is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I’m going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/30 "2004-05-16T15:27:31Z")
> [@QE.D](#): > > > [@Libertarian](#): > > > > “Natural causes” describes a death that is not due to illness or injury. Cancer does not qualify. > > Did you go and get stupid or something? That is the definition of [“natural causes”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_causes). > > > [@](#): > > > > Natural causes is a biological term which describes a state of death which occurs without apparent reason, such as by disease or injury. Death by natural causes occurs almost always in old age. You’re confusing me, here, **Q**. **Lib** points out that cancer (being a disease) does not qualify as a “natural cause” and you challenge him, pointing out that “natural cause” does not include a specific reason, such as disease. So, who of the three of us is missing the point, here? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/31 "2004-05-16T16:13:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, who of the three of us is missing the point, here? Probably me. I seem to have misread that Wikipedia definition at 3:30 in the morning. I’d always counted disease as a “natural cause”. _shrug_ My apologies, **Lib**. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/32 "2004-05-16T16:42:27Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > According to **Litost** and **Liberal** , Phelps’ belief that “God hates fags” is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I’m going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream. While I don’t think the two are equally morally or ethically valid, I’ll point out that neither statement is ignorant, because, while “God hates fags” is hypothetically a statement of fact, I’ve got no idea how you’d find out if God actually does, and “ **Gobear** has a right to live in peace an equality”, is a value statement, not a factual one. And, as my personal view, while it’s ok to criticize actions, I do find it kind of distasteful to say “X died and I’m glad he’s dead”, whomever X might be. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/33 "2004-05-16T16:46:52Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Oh, > > does anyone have Fred Phelps’ address? I want to send him a contribution to further his work. I’m so embarrassed that I ever commented negatively on his campaign to rid America of the plague of homosexuality. He has every right to keep “making his voice heard in accordance with his worldview,” and it’s a shame that any gay person should ever contradict him or attempt to combat his activism. > > According to **Litost** and **Liberal** , Phelps’ belief that “God hates fags” is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I’m going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream. I am sorry but I don’t see where I ever mentioned what you have just claimed. In fact, I haven’t mentioned homosexuality or moral equivalence in any of my posts. **Libertarian** gave his personal perspective on the OP. Why are you lumping me with what he said? 😕 I have been talking about the bunker mentality fueled by ignorance and hatred. In the fight for securing rights for homosexuals, the ignorance and bigotry solely rests on the side opposing it. There is no moral equivalence. **Epim…** , Great post which gives us all hope. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/34 "2004-05-16T16:57:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought. This is exactly how it must have been going back 2000 years… in every country in every issue in every war. pro and anti fighting each other. It doesn’t matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both. Ignorance and hatred and mindlessness. I don’t think ignorance has ever lost or will ever lose. It doesn’t seem to have changed This led me to think you saw no diference between pro and anti. Glad to see your clarification. ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/35 "2004-05-16T17:21:47Z")
**litost** When I quit drinking, I learned this: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. It is the central belief adopted by AA and it is the center of my existance. For the record, they didn’t invent it and they don’t own it. A guy named Bill said this is wise and spread it. It is called the Serenity Prayer and I have considered it for many hundreds of hours of the last 17 years of my life. I have learned that the only person I can really **change** is the man in the mirror and that’s damned hard sometimes. I try to be well informed and knowledgeable, sometimes I fail. I try to pass factual information to other people, sometimes they learn, sometimes not. Ignorance is ramapant across our little planet, I cannot **change** that but one bit at a time, often I fail. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/36 "2004-05-16T17:26:59Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > This led me to think you saw no diference between pro and anti. Glad to see your clarification. There could be ignorance on at least one side or both. But, the bunker mentality seems to exist on both sides. While I hope none of us develop a siege mentality that could potentially lead to hatred, I am more concerned about the hatred that stems from ignorance. Ignorance of plain facts and history. Ignorance that comes from being intellecually lazy. Ignorance that comes from being fanatical and jingoistic. I think **Lib** was protesting the hatred and bunker mentality on its own, independent of the relative merits of the individual positions. I wish I could say what he said with conviction, but I can’t, not with my own personal shortcomings. But, that would be an ideal we should work towards, as hard as it could be for those who are in the right. **gobear** , you don’t have to hate your opponents to be politically active and oppose them, right? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/37 "2004-05-16T18:16:50Z")
> [@litost](#): > > **gobear** , you don’t have to hate your opponents to be politically active and oppose them, right? No, I don’t have to hate them, but I also must never forget that they hate me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/38 "2004-05-16T18:46:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Oops, sorry, I forgot. When liberals do stupid shit, we’re supposed to just laugh it off. Laughing off stupid shit never killed anybody. And I think you tend to keep your criticism on one side of the aisle. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/39 "2004-05-16T19:35:32Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > No, I don’t have to hate them, but I also must never forget that they hate me. Does that mean you hate them in return? (Let me reiterate that I strongly believe that your fight is for a just cause) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301/40 "2004-05-16T19:54:52Z")
> [@litost](#): > > Does that mean you hate them in return? > > (Let me reiterate that I strongly believe that your fight is for a just cause) Did you read what I wrote? I said, “No, I don’t have to hate them,” What part did you not understand? No. I, Don’t Have To Hate Them So, does not hating them mean that I should sit, hands folded, and do nothing? Because, you know, that if I were to defend my rights as a citizen that might hurt someone’s feelings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-really-fight-ignorance/245301.md?page=3)