# Can we shoot back?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 10, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596 "2010-06-10T00:31:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@BCHH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BCHH)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/101 "2010-06-12T03:16:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> People who have access to protective clothing and shields which are perfectly capable of rendering any stone a human was able to throw totally harmless, should not be responding with lethal force.
Suppose the border patrol agent had picked up a rock and chucked it back at the group. And suppose he happened to hit this same kid with that rock in such a place that it killed him. Admittedly, this isn’t a very likely scenario, but a rock can also be lethal force. Are the agents supposed to just stand back and let this shit happen to them?
Perhaps instead of guns, the border agents should instead be issued a sack filled with fist-sized rocks. That will level the playing field a bit, eh? At least until he has to confront someone that happens to be carrying a gun, then he’s fucked.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/102 "2010-06-12T03:26:24Z")
> [@BCHH](#):
>
> Suppose the border patrol agent had picked up a rock and chucked it back at the group.
Someone would still be offended as presumably adults throw better.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/103 "2010-06-12T05:03:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> There comes a time in every parent’s life when they realize that if they will never, ever use corporal punishment for any reason and their kid knows it, their authority will vanish. Similarly, laws have to ultimately be backed up by the willingness to kill people who use force to defy them. Huereka was the equivalent of a bratty kid kicking someone in the shins and daring them to do something about it. So tough shit.
Fuck that. cops are not judge jury and executioner. Throwing a rock across the border did not constitute a threat that death was reasonable force to counter.
I wish I could make this post spit on your parents face for producing such vile garbage as you, you cactus themed wetting rod.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/104 "2010-06-12T05:22:14Z")
> [@BCHH](#):
>
> Suppose the border patrol agent had picked up a rock and chucked it back at the group. And suppose he happened to hit this same kid with that rock in such a place that it killed him. Admittedly, this isn’t a very likely scenario, but a rock can also be lethal force. Are the agents supposed to just stand back and let this shit happen to them?
[If](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teargas) [only](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-spray_projectile) [there](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_gun) [was](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet) [something](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weapon) [between](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malodorant) [nothing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cannon) [and](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_grenade#Sting) [deadly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_foam) [force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_weapon). Too bad that’d rob Americans of their proud manifest destiny tradition of murdering brown people to further their goals.
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### Author:  [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/105 "2010-06-12T05:53:14Z")
Bunch of shitty fucking people in this thread. Jesus Christ.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/106 "2010-06-12T06:42:28Z")
[QUOTE= The Tao’s Revenge]
If only there was something between nothing and deadly force. Too bad that’d rob Americans of their proud manifest destiny tradition of murdering brown people to further their goals.
[/QUOTE]
Each and every one of the “weapons” to which you linked has also been decried as “deadly force” by the same shrill betties that think it’s OK for border patrol agents to not patrol the border.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/107 "2010-06-12T07:19:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> No shit. Also how ironic is it that a Mexican who thinks it’s fine for Mexicans to sneak into the U.S. has “Escapee” in his user name.
Yes, because y’alls ancestors were all cordially invited to come and stay in Native Indian Land, weren’t you? Those people “sneaking across your border” are no less adventurers seeking a new life than the fucking Pilgrim Fathers.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/108 "2010-06-12T14:05:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Fuck that. cops are not judge jury and executioner. Throwing a rock across the border did not constitute a threat that death was reasonable force to counter.
>
> I wish I could make this post spit on your parents face for producing such vile garbage as you, you cactus themed wetting rod.
It took me a while to think of something to say to this besides “eat me” or “insert flipping-the-bird-smiley here”. So let me say something informative about my position:
I do not believe that human life is infinitely precious, that everyone who manages to be born and draw breath is automatically deserving of my love or consideration. Ultimately human life is only precious if on some level or another it’s on _my side_. My friends, my family, my clan, my gang, my tribe, my nation. Or, if absolutely nothing else, at least the presumption that this total stranger and I are both law-abiding members of a civil society. If there’s not even that, if the stranger has by their actions demonstrated that they’re looking out for Number One and to hell with me, then as far as I’m concerned they’re a two-legged animal: at best a competitor and at worst a predator.
So I’m not going to shed a single tear for Huereka. I have plenty of company. And if you don’t approve, tough shit.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/109 "2010-06-12T14:33:20Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#):
>
> Each and every one of the “weapons” to which you linked has also been decried as “deadly force” by the same shrill betties that think it’s OK for border patrol agents to not patrol the border.
You’re a brainless moron if you think those are anywhere close to lethal as being shot like that kid was. Hell he could have backed off, and called for a back up force strong enough to subdue them, but that wouldn’t let the officer bigot act like some limp dick Rambo wannabe. I hope he lives a very long life of waking up screaming in the middle of the night from dreams of the murderous blood on his hands.
There’s a poster around here for hiring border patrol agents. After this I intend to use that contact information to tell them what murderous savages they are, how they’re a shit stain on the flag they are if they let this murder go unpunished.
You people just needlessly killed a child over your precious taken at gun point borders. That kid who will now never grow up.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/110 "2010-06-12T14:34:11Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Yes, because y’alls ancestors were all cordially invited to come and stay in Native Indian Land, weren’t you? Those people “sneaking across your border” are no less adventurers seeking a new life than the fucking Pilgrim Fathers.
In some regards, I’d agree. But there is an important difference. The Pilgrims didn’t “sneak” in. And they did not knowingly break the laws of any nation in coming here. Very true that the Native Americans got treated horribly, but you really can’t judge their actions by today’s standards.
And this is something that tickles me: fans of Mexicans sneaking in here are very quick to try to point to the European settlers of three and four hundred years ago, but you never here a peep about the Spanish and how they had their way with Mexico. Mexican culture is in many ways more Spanish than indigenous, even down to the language. But I guess there’s more than a little cognitive dissonance involved in hating oneself.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/111 "2010-06-12T14:40:59Z")
Just came across this:
> [@](#):
>
> Aztec troops were besieging the palace. Following orders from Cortés, Moctezuma spoke from a balcony, asking his people to let the Spanish return to the coast— **but the audience jeered and threw stones at him, injuring him badly. Moctezuma died a few days later.**
Too perfect.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/112 "2010-06-12T14:41:39Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> It took me a while to think of something to say to this besides “eat me” or “insert flipping-the-bird-smiley here”. So let me say something informative about my position:
>
> I do not believe that human life is infinitely precious, that everyone who manages to be born and draw breath is automatically deserving of my love or consideration. Ultimately human life is only precious if on some level or another it’s on _my side_. My friends, my family, my clan, my gang, my tribe, my nation. Or, if absolutely nothing else, at least the presumption that this total stranger and I are both law-abiding members of a civil society. If there’s not even that, if the stranger has by their actions demonstrated that they’re looking out for Number One and to hell with me, then as far as I’m concerned they’re a two-legged animal: at best a competitor and at worst a predator.
>
> So I’m not going to shed a single tear for Huereka. I have plenty of company. And if you don’t approve, tough shit.
This is a fucking kid you Klansman. He threw a rock. Apparently you feel he’s an animal, because he didn’t fall out of an American vagina. Do you think rowdy Americans kids refusing to disperse on a mall parking lot should be executed too? Or is the factor that makes him deserve death his Mexican mother?
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/113 "2010-06-12T14:49:35Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> You’re a brainless moron if you think those are anywhere close to lethal as being shot like that kid was.
See my previous post. Seems like you know less than the Aztecs about the damage stones can do.
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> You people just needlessly killed a child over your precious taken at gun point borders. That kid who will now never grow up.
True. But that’s a common problem with Darwin Award candidates.
I do find your post interesting in that you give our country’s borders the same respect that dumb kid did. THAT is the problem. You dumb bastards just don’t get that while there might not have borders hundreds of years ago, there ARE borders now. So stop you’re fucking whining and join the civilized world.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/114 "2010-06-12T14:52:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Just came across this:
>
> Too perfect.
As long as we’re digging up ancient history, do you believe the British were justified in using deadly force at the Boston Massacre? Were the Revolutionary feelings generated from it an unjust evil disrespect for the law?
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/115 "2010-06-12T14:56:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I do find your post interesting in that you give our country’s borders the same respect that dumb kid did. THAT is the problem. You dumb bastards just don’t get that while there might not have borders hundreds of years ago, there ARE borders now. So stop you’re fucking whining and join the civilized world.
No you fucking neanderthal, some punk kid isn’t an armed incursion. If someone trespasses on your property are you justified in killing them if a less lethal alternative exits?
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/116 "2010-06-12T14:57:43Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> This is a fucking kid you Klansman. He threw a rock. Apparently you feel he’s an animal, because he didn’t fall out of an American vagina. Do you think rowdy Americans kids refusing to disperse on a mall parking lot should be executed too? Or is the factor that makes him deserve death his Mexican mother?
Look. Here’s the deal. You have a border patrol agent in isolated, hostile territory. He doesn’t know if everyone in shouting distance is an impish 15-year-old kid just letting off steam, or if there are people who would like to dispense with an unconscious or otherwise wounded border agent. Also, it’s bad policy to call in the cavalry every time rock are thrown. That would allow a bunch of teenagers with rocks to subvert the patrolling of our borders. Nope. Sorry.
Now, it is sad that a 15-year-old kid is dead. But you should look to the attitude that caused that to happen. It’s the same attitude that you seem to have. That you don’t like our border, so you think you have the right to ignore it. So, I hold YOU and people like you responsible for this dumb kid’s death. Change your fucking attitude and less young kids will adopt it and find themselves in similar circumstance.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/117 "2010-06-12T15:07:36Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> No you fucking neanderthal, some punk kid isn’t an armed incursion. If someone trespasses on your property are you justified in killing them if a less lethal alternative exits?
Neanderthal? Ha! No. I’m the civilized one here. You’re the one who wants to revert to a world without nationhood and the respect for laws.
Trespassing? No. Though some states might allow for this if the property is posted. But trespassing on my property AND throwing rocks at me, I certainly don’t know what I would do in that situation, but I think I should be allowed to shoot him. No question. If I were on a jury the guy that did that shooting would get off. I’m pretty sure this is the policy in Texas. As it should be everywhere.
And you seem to be leaving this kids stupidity completely out of the equation. That, and like I just posted, the fact there’s an underlying attitude held by you and many Mexicans that since you don’t like our border, you can make believe it doesn’t exist. I don’t get that. Just what the fuck is wrong with you people? (No, not brown people, people, whites included, who believe this.)
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/118 "2010-06-12T15:08:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Look. Here’s the deal. You have a border patrol agent in isolated, hostile territory. He doesn’t know if everyone in shouting distance is an impish 15-year-old kid just letting off steam, or if there are people who would like to dispense with an unconscious or otherwise wounded border agent.
There are Americans who wouldn’t disposing of a cop, should the default police response to rowdy kids be a hail of gunfire?
> [@](#):
>
> Also, it’s bad policy to call in the cavalry every time rock are thrown. That would allow a bunch of teenagers with rocks to subvert the patrolling of our borders. Nope. Sorry.
Yea and calling for backup everytime a cop is out numbered would be bad form too. Better make police policy to just start firing when out numbered, instead.
> [@](#):
>
> Now, it is sad that a 15-year-old kid is dead. But you should look to the attitude that caused that to happen. It’s the same attitude that you seem to have. That you don’t like our border, so you think you have the right to ignore it. So, I hold YOU and people like you responsible for this dumb kid’s death. Change your fucking attitude and less young kids will adopt it and find themselves in similar circumstance.
Oh I see the attitude alright. It’s the same attitude the KKK is famous for.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/119 "2010-06-12T15:23:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Neanderthal? Ha! No. I’m the civilized one here. You’re the one who wants to revert to a world without nationhood and the respect for laws.
Respect for the law does not equal murdering anyone who violates it, you sick degenerate fuck.
> [@](#):
>
> Trespassing? No. Though some states might allow for this if the property is posted. But trespassing on my property AND throwing rocks at me, I certainly don’t know what I would do in that situation, but I think I should be allowed to shoot him. No question. If I were on a jury the guy that did that shooting would get off. I’m pretty sure this is the policy in Texas. As it should be everywhere.
Good so you would kill a 15 year old instead of retreating and calling the cops (the back up you hate so much), you uncivilized sick fuck.
> [@](#):
>
> And you seem to be leaving this kids stupidity completely out of the equation. That, and like I just posted, the fact there’s an underlying attitude held by you and many Mexicans that since you don’t like our border, you can make believe it doesn’t exist. I don’t get that. Just what the fuck is wrong with you people? (No, not brown people, people, whites included, who believe this.)
Teenagers do reckless things all the time. Their brains haven’t yet developed into adults. It’s why they have separate sentencing for them. Unless they’re Mexican it seems, then it’s a capital crime.
---
### Author:  [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/120 "2010-06-12T15:26:30Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#):
>
> It really isn’t a bunch of people arguing about “shit”. Immigration between the two countries is a very big deal to people on both sides of the border. The amount bigotry and racism displayed in your country against us is enormous. So when one of our young man is shot by one of your policeman, people in your country automatically jump to the conclusion that the perosn at fault is the Mexican. And the hatred shown by many on this thread alone is all over the interent on other websites.
For the record, we don’t \*\*all \*\*believe it was the Mexican boy’s fault.
I will say no more since all I’ll get in reply from these losers is “well no big surprise since you’re harboring illegals!!!ZOMG a traitor to your country!!!”.
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