# Can we shoot back?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 10, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596 "2010-06-10T00:31:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/121 "2010-06-12T15:31:44Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> There are Americans who wouldn’t disposing of a cop, should the default police response to rowdy kids be a hail of gunfire?
I think even you would be able to acknowledge that what might be wise in one situation might not be wise in another. But maybe I give you too much credit. You do realize that the military do not fight every war the same way, the police do not patrol every area in the same way, and that the two often do things quite differently. I might just make sense to not treat the situation of being the target of rock-throwing kids in Boise the same as being the target of rock throwing kids in a remote areas where there are people who want to kill you, and have killed other border agents.
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Yea and calling for backup everytime a cop is out numbered would be bad form too. Better make police policy to just start firing when out numbered, instead.
Do they have logical fallacies in Mexico? Do they have middles? Do they get excluded by poor debaters from time to time?
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Oh I see the attitude alright. It’s the same attitude the KKK is famous for.
And what attitude, specifically, might that be?
By the way, would you consider yourself a racist? Serious question.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/122 "2010-06-12T15:41:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Respect for the law does not equal murdering anyone who violates it, you sick degenerate fuck.
Aye-yay-yay. The people showing no respect for the law are the ones not respecting our borders. Now you may argue that the agents are showing know respect for _life_ (though I wouldn’t agree), but you’re conflating the two ina way that makes you look unsmart.( Which, more and more, seems to be the case. But that’s neither here nor there.)
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Good so you would kill a 15 year old instead of retreating and calling the cops (the back up you hate so much), you uncivilized sick fuck.
I think it would depend on the specific situation. I can envision situations in which I think calling in more cops is the thing to do. I can also envision scenarios in which firing a gun in the direction of the rock assault is the thing to do.
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Teenagers do reckless things all the time. Their brains haven’t yet developed into adults. It’s why they have separate sentencing for them. Unless they’re Mexican it seems, then it’s a capital crime.
I agree about kids doing stupid things in general. But different levels of stupid have different consequences. I did stuff as kid that, in hindsight, could have resulted in my death. I was lucky. But if I died doing them it would have been my own stupidity.
But no, the kid was not sentenced to death, he would up dead because he caused a situation in which his death was a possibility.
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### Author:  [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/123 "2010-06-12T21:19:47Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Oh I see the attitude alright. It’s the same attitude the KKK is famous for.
My only comment is that it’s perfectly logically sound to be both in favor of pretty strict border enforcement (and remember, according to links upthread this “kid” has been arrested multiple times for smuggling, he’s a teenager but he’s also a repeat criminal offender and at some level that was his choice) and in favor of vastly increased legal immigration and a general amnesty for people who are here and living and working.
Put another way, I don’t think you can call everyone on the one side of this issue racist. I’d happily have a 6- or 7-figure annual quota for legal Mexican immigrants, and I’d be happy for them to be on a citizenship/permanent resident track, not just some kind of migrant or seasonal worker bullshit.. But I also think the Border Patrol has an absolute right to utilize any force, even deadly force, to prevent illegal incursions onto American soil.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/124 "2010-06-12T21:20:25Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> This is a fucking kid you Klansman. He threw a rock. Apparently you feel he’s an animal, because he didn’t fall out of an American vagina. Do you think rowdy Americans kids refusing to disperse on a mall parking lot should be executed too? Or is the factor that makes him deserve death his Mexican mother?
Klansman? I’ve **met** Klansmen, such as my grandfather, who when I was a kid in Georgia would regale me with tales of how his dad and uncles used to take blacks out into the woods, shoot them and bury the bodies in shallow graves. I am a mewling liberal by comparison.
IMHO the cutoff for “kid” is 12. After that, you do stupid shit and get hurt, it’s your own fault.
And finally, you and the OP have repeatedly played the race card, insisting that us evil whites are replaying Manifest Destiny. Grow up. I don’t give a shit what color Huereka’s skin was, or what language he spoke.
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### Author:  [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/125 "2010-06-13T06:21:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> And finally, you and the OP have repeatedly played the race card, insisting that us evil whites are replaying Manifest Destiny. Grow up. I don’t give a shit what color Huereka’s skin was, or what language he spoke.
The fact of the matter is that I STILL don’t know what color Huereka’s skin was. A lot of Mexicans have brown skin, but a lot of them have black or white or red skin, too. For all I know (or care), Huereka’s skin might have been paler than mine is. I’ve met plenty of Mexicans/Hispanics who have lighter skin than I do…and they have blue or green or hazel eyes, too, whereas my eyes are dark brown.
And on the Internet, as the saying goes, nobody knows that you’re a dog. Well, nobody knows your skin color on the internet, either, unless you choose to reveal it in some way. I know that I’ve been surprised on the SDMB by someone revealing his/her skin color, or even sex, more than once.
By the way, do you know who generally most strongly opposes illegal immigration from Mexico? It’s usually Mexicans or Central or South Americans who came here legally. ESPECIALLY if they have brown skin.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/126 "2010-06-13T17:35:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#):
>
> My only comment is that it’s perfectly logically sound to be both in favor of pretty strict border enforcement (and remember, according to links upthread this “kid” has been arrested multiple times for smuggling, he’s a teenager but he’s also a repeat criminal offender and at some level that was his choice) and in favor of vastly increased legal immigration and a general amnesty for people who are here and living and working.
I don’t think his prior record signifies. For one thing, we have some links saying he was a juvenile delinquent and others saying he was a straight-A student. More importantly, the Border Patrol agent could not have known who he was.
However, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and probably doing the wrong thing. Could the agent have handled it differently? Probably. Is he wholly to blame for the killing? Hardly.
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### Author:  [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/127 "2010-06-16T00:33:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> Les gustan a los moderadores si hableis en ingles, por favor.
A los moderadores les gusta que hablen en ingles, por favor.
Over the years lots of people have helped me with my english in the SDMB. Please don’t be offended by the correction: that sentence was a disaster :).
Back to the OP. This thread is a disgrace and dopers from both countries proved that God does not discriminate against fuckers, they come in all colours and speak in all languages.
Of course, lots of exceptions, as usual.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/128 "2010-06-16T01:32:15Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#):
>
> If a person is in reasonable fear of his life or personal safety, then yes, he can shoot someone who is in a group of people who are throwing rocks at him.
Did you even look at the video? The guys wasn’t surrounded, he wasn’t in fear of his life. He had his gun out as a bunch of guys were PAST him to get to the other side of the border. He grabbed one of them (and got him on his knees) and the other one might have started throwing rocks (the video is too fuzzy to tell if there are any rocks) when the CBP officer fired three shots and then one more shot. Result, dead kid.
There was no “group of people throwing rocks” You make it sound like you think a gang of kids were throwing rocks at him, everyone was trying their best to get the heck away from him.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/129 "2010-06-16T01:33:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#):
>
> I think Border Patrol absolutely needs more latitude than “police”, especially given the cites of Mexican police and military units crossing the border illegally upthread.
You really want to militarize the border between the US and Mexico?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/130 "2010-06-16T01:35:51Z")
> [@Zeriel](#):
>
> Let me clarify–I don’t believe they should use that force in all cases, but I believe that the absolute right exists. In this case, we have cites upthread that the deceased is a known repeat smuggler and border violator–good enough for me.
So you think illegally crossing a border is enough reason to get shot?
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/131 "2010-06-16T01:36:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> You really want to militarize the border between the US and Mexico?
Given that its a border nobody seems to respect, riff with illegals, guns, and drugs flowing across it, why the hell NOT?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/132 "2010-06-16T01:40:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> The Border Patrol was not in danger from a few thrown rocks. They should have retreated
I have looked at the video several times looking for evidence that the CBP officer was hit by rocks (flinching or something like that) and I don’t see it.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/133 "2010-06-16T01:43:09Z")
> [@BCHH](#):
>
> Suppose the border patrol agent had picked up a rock and chucked it back at the group. And suppose he happened to hit this same kid with that rock in such a place that it killed him. Admittedly, this isn’t a very likely scenario, but a rock can also be lethal force. Are the agents supposed to just stand back and let this shit happen to them?
>
> Perhaps instead of guns, the border agents should instead be issued a sack filled with fist-sized rocks. That will level the playing field a bit, eh? At least until he has to confront someone that happens to be carrying a gun, then he’s fucked.
Did you watch the video?
BTW I think if he killed the kid after throwing a rock then he used proportionate force but firing 4 shots at the kid seems a bit overkill.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/134 "2010-06-16T01:45:22Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#):
>
> Each and every one of the “weapons” to which you linked has also been decried as “deadly force” by the same shrill betties that think it’s OK for border patrol agents to not patrol the border.
Seriously folks, watch the video and then come back and say that what the border patrol guy did looks OK to you.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/135 "2010-06-16T01:49:42Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> You’re a brainless moron if you think those are anywhere close to lethal as being shot like that kid was. Hell he could have backed off, and called for a back up force strong enough to subdue them, but that wouldn’t let the officer bigot act like some limp dick Rambo wannabe. I hope he lives a very long life of waking up screaming in the middle of the night from dreams of the murderous blood on his hands.
>
> There’s a poster around here for hiring border patrol agents. After this I intend to use that contact information to tell them what murderous savages they are, how they’re a shit stain on the flag they are if they let this murder go unpunished.
>
> You people just needlessly killed a child over your precious taken at gun point borders. That kid who will now never grow up.
He wasn’t trying to protect himself, noone was charging him, he wasn’t surrounded. He only had one free hand because he was holding another kid by the scruff of the neck and he turned around and shot three times then one more time. He was standing straight up, not crouched or even hiding behind his prisoner under some hail of rocks. Noone was close enough to him to be able to hit him with a rock without having just as good a chance of hitting the CBP guys’ prisoner with a rock.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/136 "2010-06-16T01:55:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Look. Here’s the deal. You have a border patrol agent in isolated, hostile territory. He doesn’t know if everyone in shouting distance is an impish 15-year-old kid just letting off steam, or if there are people who would like to dispense with an unconscious or otherwise wounded border agent. Also, it’s bad policy to call in the cavalry every time rock are thrown. That would allow a bunch of teenagers with rocks to subvert the patrolling of our borders. Nope. Sorry.
>
> Now, it is sad that a 15-year-old kid is dead. But you should look to the attitude that caused that to happen. It’s the same attitude that you seem to have. That you don’t like our border, so you think you have the right to ignore it. So, I hold YOU and people like you responsible for this dumb kid’s death. Change your fucking attitude and less young kids will adopt it and find themselves in similar circumstance.
Seriously watch the video.
He wasn’t some lone ranger out on the frontier with nothing but his wits and his gun. The guy wasn’t surrounded or in hostile territory, he wasn’t in the middle of the desert, he under a bridge at a border crossing, and the cavalry (a car full of border patrol) did in fact arrive 30 seconds after he fired his gun as did Mexican border patrol.
Watch the video before you make even more of a fool of yourself.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/137 "2010-06-16T01:59:17Z")
> [@Zeriel](#):
>
> My only comment is that it’s perfectly logically sound to be both in favor of pretty strict border enforcement (and remember, according to links upthread this “kid” has been arrested multiple times for smuggling, he’s a teenager but he’s also a repeat criminal offender and at some level that was his choice) and in favor of vastly increased legal immigration and a general amnesty for people who are here and living and working.
>
> Put another way, I don’t think you can call everyone on the one side of this issue racist. I’d happily have a 6- or 7-figure annual quota for legal Mexican immigrants, and I’d be happy for them to be on a citizenship/permanent resident track, not just some kind of migrant or seasonal worker bullshit.. But I also think the Border Patrol has an absolute right to utilize any force, even deadly force, to prevent illegal incursions onto American soil.
From the video it looks like the kid was running from America back to Mexico and was shot on Mexican soil.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/138 "2010-06-16T02:02:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> Given that its a border nobody seems to respect, riff with illegals, guns, and drugs flowing across it, why the hell NOT?
I mentioned before how I used to live in Laredo and illegal aliens used to cross the border ALL THE TIME and it never really bothered anyone (except the racists) and I suspect that was the case all along the border UNTIL they started carrying guns (they’d been carrying pot and cocaine for a while now).
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/139 "2010-06-16T02:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]
I mentioned before how I used to live in Laredo and illegal aliens used to cross the border ALL THE TIME and it never really bothered anyone (except the racists) and I suspect that was the case all along the border UNTIL they started carrying guns (they’d been carrying pot and cocaine for a while now).
[/QUOTE]
It hasn’t been that way in a LONG time. Again people, we are talking about Juarez here. I know that doesn’t mean anything to some non-US dopers or even US 'dopers from parts far from the border, but this is a place that has one of (if not THE) highest murder rate per capita in the freaking WORLD.
-XT
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-shoot-back/542596/140 "2010-06-16T02:34:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I mentioned before how I used to live in Laredo and illegal aliens used to cross the border ALL THE TIME and it never really bothered anyone (except the racists) and I suspect that was the case all along the border UNTIL they started carrying guns (they’d been carrying pot and cocaine for a while now).
Thats fracking funny.
Like I said, a border no one appears to be respecting.
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