# Can we start over? (Ann Coulter)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 28, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507 "2002-03-28T03:31:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/1 "2002-03-28T03:31:24Z")
Seeing as how the [original thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=105098) has deginerated into a hate-Ryan-fest, I’d like to give a chance to people who are actually interested in having a rational argument with me to come to this thread. I would have liked to put this in GD to discourage Pit-type behavior, but apparently that’s not allowed :rolleyes:.
I’ll start.
“homosexual conduct” is a technically accurate term for male-male contact, but many people interpret it as being any conduct done by homosexuals, so I will try to avoid it in this thread.
There is good evidence that most male-male child molesters are not homosexual. I really, truly, honestly do not remember every saying that most are, but if I did I retract that statement.
Now, is there anything else that anyone wants me to agree to?
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### Author:  [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/2 "2002-03-28T03:49:30Z")
Will you agree that Ann Coulter looks a bit like Alessandra Mussolini?
Couldn’t resist. Ha.
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### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/3 "2002-03-28T04:07:54Z")
Link to the Ann Coulter article that started the whole thing.
[http://frontpagemag.com/columnists/coulter/2002/ac03-21-02.htm](http://frontpagemag.com/columnists/coulter/2002/ac03-21-02.htm)
And I’m still having trouble figuring out what she’s talking about, which is kind of why I wasn’t in the other thread. Evidently she’s ranting about something, but what?
BTW, I don’t hate you, Ryan
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### Author:  [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/4 "2002-03-28T04:23:48Z")
Remember, a bit of semantics and word-hijacking is involved here, esp. with regards to anything that has to do with children.
If one buggers little boys in the ass, most people want to disassociate themselves with you, at least ideologically. I think that’s where the controversy lies. That’s why Annie points out that media attention focuses on the Catholic Church because they dislike organized religion. The Boy Scouts get a Non-Team Player award, because they seem disinclined to play around with words too much.
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### Author:  [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/5 "2002-03-28T04:36:51Z")
Huh?
Tedster says “media attention focuses on the Catholic Church because they dislike organized religion.” Where on earth do you get that idea? Many of the reporters I know – even some of the most hard-bitten and cynical – are religious. And whatever the feelings of the rest, I cannot remember any instance of reporters mocking religion or showing contempt.
Reporters like to uncover scandal and abuse of power. The Catholic Church is bigger and more powerful than, say, the local Church of the Nazarene so the Catholic Church gets more attention. But suggesting the CC is a target because reporters dislike organized religion is just wrong.
As for Coulter, I understood her line of thinking in making comparisons between the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts. I find her logic faulty, though, and I agree with others who point out that she completely missed the issue of church authorities _protecting abusers and hiding their crimes_. That seems to me to be the heart of the scandal.
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### Author:  [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/6 "2002-03-28T04:48:47Z")
You may want to read **Ted’s** post again, **Clark**. He’s not the droid you’re looking for.
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### Author:  [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/7 "2002-03-28T04:50:33Z")
Or maybe I should have read it again. Either way. I’m easy.
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/8 "2002-03-28T05:15:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Despite the growing media consensus that Catholicism causes sodomy…
Well, just so long as _the media_ is sure. :rolleyes: I must have missed that meeting.
She then goes on to form the following “argument”: the crimes in question are homosexual in nature… that is, the acts are perfromed on males by males. The only people who perform homosexual acts are homosexual men. Thus, homosexuals should be banned from, well, whatever. Everything, it seems.
Sorry, wrong answer. In cases of pre-pubescent and sometimes post-pubescent molestation, the sexual alignment of the perp is not reflected in the sex of those who are molested. When we are discussing such a context as youth molestation, we can no longer make the claim that homosexual acts are performed by homosexual men. Certainly they may be, but as far as I know there is no evidence supporting the assertion, and that in fact evidence to the contrary has been shown.
> [@](#):
>
> Since liberals categorically reject the notion that homosexual conduct is often correlated with homosexuality, they have responded to the gay sex-abuse crisis in the priesthood by blaming Catholicism.
In this context, the evil liberals seem to be absolutely correct. Sexual behavior from older persons to younger persons is not related to the sex of the child. And Ann, here, seems to just have a bug up her but because she cannot grasp the idea that a homosexual act does not a homosexual make. If it did the world would be _swimming_ with homosexuals.
> [@](#):
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> Even in the midst of the Catholic Church’s current scandals – including decades-old cases – the Catholic clergy has about the same percentage of perverts as the Yale faculty. There are more than 45,000 priests in America and, so far, 55 exposed abusers. There are 836 tenured professors at Yale, and one proved child molester – convicted just last month.
Perhaps she needs to reassess her statistical skills. :rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> In all other circumstances, it is punishable by death to suggest that sexual behavior is not determined at birth or that gays can be “cured.” Now liberals are hawking the idea that gay priests could have been cured by marriage!
My GOD woman, could you be any more dense? Gays cannot be cured because there is nothing to cure. They suggest that perhaps such incidents could be avoided more often if priests had a means of releasing their sexual urges, or if they were otherwise involved in a romantic, caring relationship… _and this suggestion is not (AFAIK) made toward just gay priests but all priests_. Mother fucker, this lady is dumb.
People like this make me proud to support abortion. 😃
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/9 "2002-03-28T05:28:47Z")
Sweet jesus, did anyone read the comments people post in response to that article? I feel like I’m reading transcripts from an idiot convention.
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/10 "2002-03-29T00:00:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Duke \*
> \*\*Will you agree that Ann Coulter looks a bit like Alessandra Mussolini?
>
> Couldn’t resist. Ha. \*\*
Sorry, I’ve never seen a photograph of il ducessa. Or whatever the proper Italian is.
DDG
> [@](#):
>
> And I’m still having trouble figuring out what she’s talking about, which is kind of why I wasn’t in the other thread. Evidently she’s ranting about something, but what?
My take on it is that she annoyed at the way that liberals are trying to shift attention away from the idea that male-male acts might be done by homosexuals. When I first saw the article, I thought this was rather silly, but looking at how I got jumped on, it does seem like liberals can get rather irrational when it comes to homosexuality. I still don’t think that this is mainly a problem with homosexuals, but I do think that people in general are uncomfortable discussing the extent to which homosexuality was involved for fear of being called a bigot.
> [@](#):
>
> BTW, I don’t hate you, Ryan
Thanks.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/11 "2002-03-29T00:35:29Z")
I certainly don’t hate you either (though I’d appreciate it if you avoided generalizing the people who disagree with you as “liberals”).
The fact is that pedophelia is _not_ homosexuality, and vice versa. Period, full stop, end of statement.
If you disagree with that, I’m happy to discuss it.
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/12 "2002-03-29T01:41:39Z")
group hug, I call it.
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/13 "2002-03-31T01:30:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by andros \*
> I certainly don’t hate you either (though I’d appreciate it if you avoided generalizing the people who disagree with you as “liberals”).
I’m not generalizing people who disagree with me as “liberals”. I’m generalizing people who can’t disagree with me rationally as “liberals”, and rabid ones at that. People in that other thread were calling me a bigot, a liar and an idiot.
> [@](#):
>
> The fact is that pedophelia is _not_ homosexuality, and vice versa. Period, full stop, end of statement.
Of course not all pedophiles are homosexuals, and not all homosexuals are pedophiles. But when there are a bunch of men molesting boys, I think that it’s valid to think that at least **some** of them are homosexual.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/14 "2002-03-31T01:45:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I’m generalizing people who can’t disagree with me rationally as “liberals”, and rabid ones at that. People in that other thread were calling me a bigot, a liar and an idiot.
Well, besides the whole “two wrongs” thing, my only issue there is that while I may disagree with you, I’m not a liberal. I hold some liberal views and many very conservative views. I just don’t want you to fall into the trap of dismissing your opposition by categorizing them as “the liberals.” No big.
> [@](#):
>
> Of course not all pedophiles are homosexuals, and not all homosexuals are pedophiles. But when there are a bunch of men molesting boys, I think that it’s valid to think that at least **some** of them are homosexual.
Sure, I’ll buy that.
However, I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that the percentage of molesters who are homosexual is any greater than the percentage of homosexuals in the population as a while.
And that’s the nub, innit? Do you have any evidence that molesters are disproportionally homosexual?
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### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/15 "2002-03-31T05:19:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Ryan \*
> \*\*Of course not all pedophiles are homosexuals, and not all homosexuals are pedophiles. But when there are a bunch of men molesting boys, I think that it’s valid to think that at least **some** of them are homosexual. \*\*
I don’t think anyone is going to dispute that. Yet, much in the same manner, some molesters might like anime because it often depicts child-like characters in a sexual context.
Precisely what is your point? What policies, if any, do you think are appropriate for homosexuals (or, for that matter, anime fans) who work with children? If these differ from the policies made for heterosexual (or non-anime watching) workers, what is your reasoning for each of the differences?
[With all due respect, I think the failure to specify your dissenting position clearly from the outset was one of the many reasons the other thread devolved in the way it did. If you have to respond with, “I didn’t say that,” it’s usually a good idea to clarify what you meant. In addition, the line-by-line dissection of posts, seeming unwillingness to address _why_ you disagreed with the APA, and apparent ignoring of the cites and links provided didn’t help you much either. While it is possible your opponents may have let their frustration get the best of them on some instances, I’d suggest you at least consider the possibility you may have been partially to blame for not communicating as clearly as possible.
Incidentally… while I apologize if my mocking of your style was not taken in the humor that was intended, I think an honest assessment of past threads would show that your format of post critique, combined with the other problems enumerated, leaves much to be desired if the intention is to reach some level of mutual understanding.
On the other hand, if the intention is to exasperate your fellow posters, it seems to succeed splendidly. Take this bit of criticism as you see fit.]
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### Author:  [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/16 "2002-03-31T07:10:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I’m generalizing people who can’t disagree with me rationally as “liberals”, and rabid ones at that. People in that other thread were calling me a bigot, a liar and an idiot.
Well, I called you a pathetic lying fuckwit, but I am quite willing to rationally defend each of those characterizations. In fact, I have already done so in the “other” thread. Those judgments have nothing whatsoever to do with my political views, many of which you would probably consider liberal. They have everything to do with the the pathetic, lying, and fuckwitted content of your posts.
I wonder, are you avoiding the term “homosexual conduct” as a descriptor for male-male molestation because you do not wish to be inflammatory?
> [@](#):
>
> But when there are a bunch of men molesting boys, I think that it’s valid to think that at least some of them are homosexual.
Of course. What is not valid, when speaking of pedophilic molestations, is to conclude that homosexuals present a greater risk than heterosexuals. That doesn’t stop Ms Coulter from doing so, of course. Nor does it stop her from spouting all kinds of nonsense about what “liberals” think.
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/17 "2002-03-31T17:52:16Z")
Ryan, what I believe liberals are trying to say is not that all child molestation is done by heterosexuals but that pedophelia is a separate sexual orientation from both heterosexuality and homosexuality. That is, heterosexuality and homosexuality are attraction to _adults_ of opposite and same gender, respectively; however, pedophelia is foremost attraction to children (a gender preference may or may not be present, but the age of the person is the primary criteria). Pedophiles who molest children of the same gender do not appear to have attraction for adults of the same gender (or at least this is the argument) and therefore equating them with gay folks by calling them homosexual and pedophiles rather than just the latter is incorrect. Of course, it would not be fair for this only to apply for homosexuals, and so it would be just as far to not call pedophiles who molest children of the opposite sex ‘heterosexual’ as well.
This is an important distinction because there are individuals out there who do actively connect homosexuality and pedophelia, and this association was even stronger in the past.
I believe the idea is that sexual orientation is more than just gender-oriented. For individuals whom gender is less important than some other factor (here, age), it would be more correct to define their sexual orientation in terms of that preference rather than defaulting to gender. I would say that there are other sorts of preferences that would qualify here as well (fetishes, for example).
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/18 "2002-03-31T18:23:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Ryan, what I believe liberals are trying to say is . . .
GHAAAAAAH!!!
Look, I’ll bring some of my Log Cabin friends over, and we’ll see just how “liberal” an argument this is.
Fuck.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/19 "2002-03-31T19:57:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by fluiddruid \*
> \*\*Ryan, what I believe liberals are trying to say is not that all child molestation is done by heterosexuals but that pedophelia is a separate sexual orientation from both heterosexuality and homosexuality.
>
> \
>
> I would say that there are other sorts of preferences that would qualify here as well (fetishes, for example). \*\*
Two points:
1. As **Spiritus Mundi** pointed out, a large factor in the scorn being heaped upon Ms Coulter is her insistence on characterizing egregiously nonsensical statements as being “what ‘liberals’ think.” Besides the fact that she makes no effort to defend the assertion that “liberals” DO _all think_ such things, she fails to make a case that even self-identified liberals _all_ think the same way on any position whatever. In light of this, I would not be comfortable in starting any statement with “what I believe liberals are trying to say.” YMMV.
2. I don’t know that very many posters to either of these threads would care to assign the label of “orientation” to pedophilia. “Fetish” does indeed strike me as the best umbrella term to apply to pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, S&M, B&D, etc. In fact, if everyone were to recognize this convention as the accurate one, Ms Coulter would have the legs knocked right out from under her entire screed, and therefore have nothing to submit for publication. Which I can only see as a good thing.
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### Author:  [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-start-over-ann-coulter/100507/20 "2002-03-31T21:22:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by andros \*
> \*\*
>
> GHAAAAAAH!!!
>
> Look, I’ll bring some of my Log Cabin friends over, and we’ll see just how “liberal” an argument this is.
>
> Fuck. \*\*
Sigh. Was a time when “liberal” wasn’t a term of derision.
(No offense, andros. This is just a comment directed toward the conversation in general.)
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