Sorry for all the posts, but I did notice that this JAMA article is not mentioned in the other thread.
You might also want to visit the American Academy of Medical Acupunture’s website.
The AAMA is an organization whose members are real live medical doctors in the United States with licenses and everything who practice acupuncture. Imagine that! Their purpose:
As for the current practice of acupuncture in China, these articles may be good prep for a better understanding of what’s going on over there. FWIW my first acupuncturist was a Chinese woman. My current practitioner was originally trained in China but is an American.
Last summer, my mother had pain so bad in her right arm that she could not even use a mouse, spending most of her time with her right arm held up against her chest. I believe it was repetitive stress or carpal tunnel, not sure. A neighbour mentioned he’d had acupuncture, and Mom gave it a shot. She had no pain after three sessions.
My dad (from whom my mom has been divorced for 33 years and does not speak to whatsoever, so this is not commisseration or even the same acupuncture practitioner) also had a similar experience.
Luckily because of my eastern perspective, I am not locked into ridiculous false dichotomies and can seek treatment on a case by case basis as is appropriate. ;p
My friend got RADS from breathing chemicals at work and was sick for quite a while. A “friend” was into magnets and homeopathic stuff and told her “Whenever you’re really ready to get well, come see me.” :rolleyes:
Yes, the arrogance of the whole thing bothers me. If they have a cure for something, then great. If not, then please shut up and stop scamming people.
My belief or lack of it shouldn’t have anything to do with whether a treatment is effective. A curious idea though. If this BS actually did anything at all, would it select for the most gullible?
I have to say, I find it utterly fascinating that, given the research cited in this thread and the other thread on acupuncture, some people are still insisting that there is no evidence that acupuncture can be effective. There’s a growing body of evidence that shows that acupuncture can be effective. Bottom line, that’s a fact.
I don’t get it. How does that not register? Do you just refuse to let in anything that does not jibe with your current opinion? Do you not look at the cites? Are you incapable of entertaining new evidence?
I’ve been thinking about the questions I asked in my last post and I think I’ve answered some of them. I think I know why some people can’t accept the evidence that acupuncture works while so many doctors do.
It’s because they’re aren’t thinking like doctors.
Check out this article.
It’s about preparing medical evidence for legal cases and I think it provides some fascinating insight into how doctors consider medical evidence and form medical opinions.
Consider, first, that medicine is not like some other sciences. It’s unpredictable, problematic, there are a lot of variables to consider, people are unique and so are their circumstances, what’s true for one person is not true for another… it’s messy (no pun intended).
Now, consider that medical evidence and scientific proof are two different things. When it comes to medicine, anecdotal evidence is actually more important than scientific proof. And, both of these are only part of a matrix of information that informs the final impression or medical opinion.
And, finally, I’ve found that even a cheerleader for kneejerk skepticism like Robert Todd Carroll knows that, when it comes to medicine, anecdotal evidence is important. If he can admit that, so should we.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cg...4951099891Guest
“Acupuncture use is increasing in the United States. Despite multiple studies,* the efficacy and safety of acupuncture are poorly defined. We report a previously healthy patient who developed a thigh abscess, bacteremia, and diabetic ketoacidosis after acupuncture treatment. *We review the literature on infectious complications of acupuncture.”" http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030715/323.html
“Trauma, postoperative infections, occult diverticulitis, strangulated femoral hernia with subcutaneous extravasation of infected contents, cancer, and even *acupuncture have been cited as precipitating events in necrotizing soft tissue infections.'”
*
Do you know what a “precipitating event” is? (Hint, it means “cause”) Do you know what “necrotizing soft tissue infection” is? (Hint, necrotizing fasciitis is one form of it. )
So yes, that last cite more or less said: “acupuncture has been cited as causingnecrotizing fasciitis”.
And don’t give me that BS that it is only “improper preparation of skin and needle”- that is like saying: “falls don’t kill people, it’s the landing that kills people.” :rolleyes:
Acupunture is not listed as a cure for anything at any of the cites I could find. It is listed as a* treatment *to relieve non-critical and non life threatening complaints. WHO for instance sez “# Acupuncture has been proven effective in relieving postoperative pain, nausea during pregnancy, nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy, and dental pain with extremely low side effects. It can also alleviate anxiety, panic disorders and insomnia.” All of which can be also effectively treated with a placebo. IMHO- that is the main “value” of acupuncture- it is a super placebo.
Now, it also can relieve pain, but only by causing pain elsehwere. The human body
is funny like that - a mild pain *we can control and know the cause of *can releive another more serious pain eslewhere, and also there’s a certain “pain overload” function. It’s part of the reason capsicum works to relieve pain.
The NIH sez “According to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture, there have been many studies on acupuncture’s potential usefulness, but results have been mixed because of complexities with study design and size, as well as difficulties with choosing and using placebos or sham acupuncture. However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain…It is proposed that acupuncture produces its effects through regulating the nervous system, thus aiding the activity of pain-killing biochemicals such as endorphins and immune system cells at specific sites in the body. In addition, studies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones and, thus, affecting the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation…” Italics mine.
Can you find a site there from a reputable source that claims acupuncture cures something or brings dead tissue back to life? :dubious:
Acupuncture also seems (look at the evidence here) to work best when dudes believe it will work.
If someone came to me and said acupuncture helped them with moderate pain, I’d beleive them. It seems to work for that, even though we don’t really know why. But when someone claims acupuncture healed dead tissue and made it come back alive- I am going to be strongly skeptical.
Hell, Faith healing works too- for some things, if you believe strongly enough.If a Xtain here said he went to the Prayer tent and the Preacher laid hands on him and his headache went away, I’d say “Halleluyah!”. But if someone came to me and claimed someone had a dead foot brought back to life- I’d say “Bullshit!”- and so would everyone esle here at the SDMB. Why are we giving “Eastern” stuff a free ride when we’d scream BS loudly if anyone claimed the same about a Xtain faithhealer? :dubious:
Wow, deja vu. See post #34. And let me know how it goes when you inform the medical community that you have discovered that cancer causes necrotizing fasciitis.
Well, if acupuncture is effective, what does it cure? Not “mixed results” or “acupuncture may be useful,” but something that says “acupuncture will cure condition X, in Y percent of patients.” (With statistics from double-blind studies to back it up.) The Mayo Clinic study you cite mentions that acupuncture “seems to be useful” which is not really a ringing endorsement.
As far as relieving mild pain and the like, maybe it does, but, as DrDeth points out, many things do. If the pain is mild enough, just getting busy with some task will stop the pain. So does adrenalin if someone is excited. A person might even take a couple of aspirin for the same condition.
Personally speaking, if I were ill I’d want something that doesn’t require my belief to work.
Testy, just because acupuncture doesn’t cure a disease does not mean it is not effective for other things.
The Mayo Clinic states: “In a 2006 Mayo Clinic study, acupuncture significantly improved symptoms of fibromyalgia. In addition, research show acupuncture can help manage postoperative pain dental pain and alleviate chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting.”
Those are not iffy statements. These doctors have concluded that research shows these things. If you feel you know more than they do, fine. Take it up with them. Then go talk to WHO, NIH, and the BMA about their conclusions. If you want to review the studies, knock yourself out. There are links to some on the two acupuncture threads here. Go to the Mayo clinic page to find the fibromyalgia study. Then go to this page and click on some of the journals. You’ll find more studies than you have time to read in those.
I’ve looked at some of the research. But I’m also satisfied that all those doctors, with all their combined years of medical experience, are in a better position to draw conclusions than I am. Of course they are using statistics from studies to inform their opinion. Fortunately, they also have a lot of other information, like their medical expertise and experience to draw on. That’s actually a good thing. It makes them more informed than us non-doctors, not less.
WHO concludes that:
Proven effective in relieving postoperative pain. Who am I to argue? Do I know more than WHO? Yes, there are other ways of relieving pain… so? Doesn’t change the facts. It just means that people have more options. Also a good thing.
As for requiring belief to work… as far as I know, the woman you saw is the only person who has said that. You had an unfortunate experience and that’s too bad. I have not seen anything that proves or even indicates that acupuncture only works if you are predisposed to believe it does. Your experience, though unfortunate, doesn’t change that. To me, it indicates that your practitioner was not a good one. Based on your experience, you’re inclined not to pursue acupuncture. Fine. Luckily, nobody is forcing you to.
To expand on DrDeth’s post, note that of all the possible good effects of acupuncture, the ones that seem most likely to work are ones that are hardest to objectively quantify: pain, nausea, panic disorders, insomnia, anxiety.
Significantly less evidence of efficacy is available for things that can be defined, detected and analyzed objectively, like fixing broken limbs, altering body chemistry, or curing diseases.
It’s relatively easy to prove/disprove that treatment X changes chemical levels in the blood to a degree of certainty. It’s harder to reach the same level of confidence if all the evidence you have is the verbal response to the question, “Do you feel better now?”
As DrDeth’s signature reads: “I am not a real Doctor”
However, he’s an excellent finder of studies and things, and I really respect him, and generally respect his interpretation of those studies. We just happen to disagree on this topic.
Aaaand, I’m outta here. I have no interest in a Great Debate thread on acupuncture and wouldn’t have posted in this had it been here in the first place. Sorry, guys.
Thanks for the cite but I think I’d prefer ones from someone that is a bit more disinterested than the American Acupuncture group. The BMA cite you referenced mentioned:
“- Investigating the cost-effectiveness of acupuncture treatment, with particular emphasis on the conditions that have so far been identified as possibly benefiting from the treatment (back pain, dental pain, migraine, nausea and vomiting).” (Bolding mine)
The mayo clinic study has this: “Because of the difficulty of conducting valid scientific studies of acupuncture — numerous past studies have been proved inadequate — it’s hard to create a definitive list of the conditions for which acupuncture might be helpful. However, preliminary studies indicate that acupuncture may offer symptomatic relief for a variety of diseases and conditions, including low back pain, headaches, migraines and osteoarthritis. In a 2006 Mayo Clinic study, acupuncture significantly improved symptoms of fibromyalgia.”
(Bolding mine again)
The WHO is the only one that makes an unequivocal claim that acupuncture is good for anything at all. While I’m certainly not claiming to know more than all the doctors involved in those organizations, my perception is that they are really “reaching” here. I’m basing that on the weasel words I’ve bolded like “may,” “preliminary,” and “possibly.” I could make similar claims about nearly anything. Given the way the results are worded, I don’t really see the case for acupuncture as being proven.
One thing that struck me was the age of this treatment. After all, acupuncture has been around for 2500 years or so. It would seem that after this amount of time it would have been proven effective. Instead, people are still plodding away, desperately trying to prove it is good for something.
As you point out, no one is forcing me to undergo acupuncture but without reproducible results, this seems like a scam and I dislike seeing other people ripped off. Not to mention the threat of infection or someone ignoring real medical advice in favor of ancient Chinese witch-doctoring.
Testy, if you had looked at the journals, you would see that they provide summaries, with links, to studies done by other people from all sorts of organizations. If you review the threads, you will see links, for example, to JAMA and the Annals of Internal Medicine. The information is there. Nobody is trying to hide anything.
As for your second point, I do not disagree. That is the statement. However, I don’t think you should point to that statement and say that it is true while suggesting that another statement, on the same page, is not true. This indicates, to me, that you are only willing to accept the information that jibes with your previously held opinion. As stated previously, there are plenty of non-iffy statements issued by the same groups. Why are you willing to only accept some of the conclusions?
Again, selective acceptance of information. I think you prefer to focus on things that support your beliefs rather than looking at the whole picture.
Really? WHO is the only one? Anybody who can read can see that that is simply not true. Let’s just take one other organization as an example. According to NIH, “NCCAM-funded study recently showed that acupuncture provides pain relief, improves function for people with osteoarthritis of the knee, and serves as an effective complement to standard care.7”
I just don’t know what to say to that. Reread the information. It is all there. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s up to you. But the proof does exist.
Real medical advice, given by real doctors from places like WHO, NIH, the Mayo Clinic, and BMA. All available for your reading pleasure. I doubt that any of them are graduates of the School of Ancient Chinese Witch Doctoring.
Ignorance not fought.