Look at the Control “skin non-penetrating placebo-acupuncture”. Now there’s problems with that- dudes can figure out they are not getting the “real stuff” and then the Placebo effect can’t work.
Haunted
Well, I’m certainly with you on this part of things. If something hurts and a treatment reliably stops the pain, then that is a good treatment. Who can argue with results?
IMHO, Acupuncture suffers from several things:
Inflated claims. DSeid, who I believe is what I would call “a real Doctor” has come up with some studies showing acupuncture to reliably fix nausea and shoulder pains. If I ever have those I’ll seriously consider using it to treat them. I’m also willing to consider that it might be good for other things if it’s proven to do so.
If you take a look at:
http://www.connecticutcenterforhealth.com/acupuncture.html
they claim AC is also useful for about 20 other conditions that they have no evidence for and no studies to back it up. Maybe acupuncture is good for some of these things but we need studies to back up the claims and that hasn’t been done.
The first page of this thread is a good example of inflated claims. It was debated whether acupuncture could reanimate a dead foot.
An explanation of how it works. The old Chinese explanation is obvious crap. As I mentioned earlier, maybe it is a simple physiological response to minor damage and should be explained as such. Nothing magical, nothing mysterious.
The kind of people that recommend it.
In my own personal experience, the lady that got my wife and I involved in acupuncture didn’t stop there. She also brought us several chunks of rock; amethyst, jade, and a few other things to set beside our bed because these minerals were, in some unexplained way, “healing.” My own experience was that they were far from “healing” if you stepped on one at night. S
Later, her and another woman tried some kind of hand-waving ceremony where they “transferred energy” to my wife. I let it go because it was harmless and my wife enjoyed them making a fuss over her.
My own experience has been that the people who recommend acupuncture will also recommend healing crystals, prayer, thinking good thoughts, and anything else they’ve heard on Oprah or read in some tabloid. They lack training and have no concept of how something is proven effective. In a word, they tend to be total air-heads.
Please note. This is explicitly not some kind of underhanded way of calling you an idiot. You’ve been a good debater and I’ve enjoyed it. I also have no idea of what your thoughts are on any of the rest of this.
If acupuncture could be removed from the aura of mysticism that presently surrounds it and then tested and standardized in some way, it could become a commonly accepted treatment for some conditions, no different than taking an aspirin.
Regards
Testy
I’ve read this thread with great interest, and I think a fair summary of it it that there is clearly some evidence that acupuncture works in some cases, but not enough evidence to be compelling.
Several people have mentioned that it should be compared to other treatments available and asked how they can be reliably tested. My understanding (I don’t have cites at the moment, but I believe I can produce them if requested) is that surgery for back pain has a fairly low success rate, and may in fact be no better at providing long term relief than bed rest. I don’t consider acupuncture to be proven and effective treatment for back pain, but I don’t consider surgery, physical therapy, or anything else medicine has come up with for back pain (besides opiates and NSAIDs) to be proven and effective either. Nevertheless, I’ve experienced back pain severe enough that I’ve been willing to try treatments that are unproven, but still have some evidentiary basis.
The last time I had severe debilitating back pain–could barely get out of bed for a month–I chose surgery because my doctor recommended it and it was readily available. It worked, but it carried significant risk, it put me several thousand dollars in debt (which I have been unable pay), and I still suffer from chronic and increasing back pain. If it gets to be that bad again, I think I’ll try acupuncture or chiropractic first. I’m deeply skeptical that ether will work, but I’m also skeptical–based on the scientific evidence–that modern Western medicine will work, and both acupuncture and chiropractic are much cheaper and have much lower risks than surgery or drugs. I can hardly blame anyone else, including a doctor like DSeid for making the same decision for themselves or their patients.
Hi, Testy. I do enjoy reading your posts. You’re very thoughtful. Full of thoughts and also kind.
I pretty much agree with you about the problems with acupuncture. Maybe they should just change the name. Puncture. Needle therapy. Something like that. NPT. (Needle Puncture Therapy.) People like acronyms.
One other problem that you did not mention is what I referred to yesterday as vigilante skepticism. When skepticism becomes pathological, it turns into pseudoskepticism. When pseudoskeptics turn activist, I think of that as vigilante skepticism. I see these folks actively engaging in attempts to discredit even those things which have NOT been disproven and that bothers me. Acupuncture is a perfect example of this. Vigilante skeptics are actively spreading the word that acupuncture is bunk (woo) and that anybody who even considers it is stupid, crazy, intellectually lazy, and woowoo. Naturally, everybody who practices acupuncture, even a doctor, is a fraud, a criminal, a nutjob. It’s ironic, because those of us who are not intellectually lazy can look into the subject further and see for ourselves that acupuncture is not just bunk. There’s really something going on there and it deserves consideration, not contempt.
As a scientist, I am both deeply embarrassed by and concerned about vigilante skeptics. I feel strongly that people should be encouraged to think critically and then make their own decisions. People should not simply be handed a list of things that are “okay to believe in” and “not okay to believe in” and then told to go forth and spread the word. Yeah, pseudoskepticism is indeed just like a religion.
Oh, I understand. We respect one another. If you want to know how I think about things generally, you can always check some of my other posts. Assuming you can look up guests’ posts.
And, even when people do call me an idiot, either subtly or explicitly, it doesn’t bother me, because I know I’m not an idiot.
Also, I’m happy to report that, over the past few weeks, I have become much more accepting of people who believe in things that I do not. It’s not exactly scientific, but I think it’s reasonable and I think it makes me a better person. It certainly makes me a happier person. 
Apparently some people who desire strong proof and won’t accept just any anecdote as evidence are too stubborn for your taste, so you call this vigilante skepticism. So what do you call those who insist on clinging to long-discredited, ancient beliefs that have an increasingly diminishing chance of being true as science progresses? Would that be pathological wishful thinking?
Yeah. I’d sign-up for NPT. Maybe “Perforation Therapy?”
Well, the skepticism part is good. We’re talking about a medical treatment that may or may not be eventually proven to be good for more than minor problems. The consequences of using acupuncture for the wrong conditions could cost lives.
As far as the “vigilante” part, you could have a point there. I have a tendency toward it myself, depending on who I’m talking with. OTOH, while vigilante skeptics may initially be a problem, if the evidence is there the one with the idea will eventually get to watch his opponents eat crow when he’s proven correct.
One of the cases that comes to mind is the Australian(?) doc who found ulcers to be caused by bacteria and that he could cure them with appropriate antibiotics. He suffered ridicule but at the end of the day he had the opportunity to laugh at those who dismissed him as a quack, because he was right.
As far as other startling ideas go, if they’re right they’ll be fine. If they’re wrong, then my personal hope is that they suffer universal ridicule and condemnation. Whether it is due to ignorance or a cynical desire to enrich themselves, quacks are dangerous and should be treated as such. If they are ignorant and untrained they shouldn’t be giving medical advice and if they are simply scamming people they should be prosecuted like any other fraud.
All the best
Testy
Interesting thread. A few comments: I took part in an acupuncture pain study back in '78 at Tufts. I never head the results, but I can say that getting stuck in the meaty part of your hand below the thumb hurts like hell. It’s also my understanding that acupuncture points were not standardized until recently (like the last 60 years or so). Prior to that each region in China had different “standard” points.
In Oregon someone recently died after a Naturopath treated him for back pain using colchicine.
DanBlather
Yeah, there have been a few of those. The nuturopath usually gets off light by claiming they were only trying to help and their beliefs were held oh-so sincerely and they had no idea the poor man would drop dead from some damn poison they concocted out of willow roots or datura plants.
I wonder how many other people have died from simply avoiding the “evil allopathic physicians.”
Regards
Testy
I’ve never tried acupuncture, but my dentist (whom I love and who advocates all appropriate allopathic treatments) swears by it. Apparently he had a car or bike accident years ago; he had had a receptionist who was studying acupuncture and he looked her up. He says it has worked like nothing else, and has recommended it for some of my jaw problems.
His acupuncturist is the same receptionist, a Chinese woman. He told me a story she told him, about how some older Asian people tend to swing the other way from allopathic medicine - she had an older Chinese guy walk in with crushing chest pain, hoping she’d solve the problem. Her response was to insist that the man go to the hospital immediately as he was obviously having a heart attack.
And I think that’s the key - if you have a chronic condition and are not getting relief from Western medicine, what’s the harm in trying an alternative (provided you are not getting prescribed herbs that interact with other medication)? I don’t want a naturopath taking my appendix out, but I may be more inclined to see an alternative practicioner about my back pain.
Exactly. I have chronic pain. When I am awake, I am in pain. When I am asleep, I awaken in pain. In the winter, the pain is worse. It is degenerating.
Western medicine? Oh. You mean Vioxx? Yes, thank you so much. Excellent. Moving right along. That entire family of medications is now off the table. No Bextra ( used it ), no Vioxx ( used it for 48 hours. Severe tachycardia, stopped ). Used Celebrex. Stopped when Vioxx lawsuits became public.
Am I willing to become dependent upon narcotics? No. Why not? Gosh, opiates are prescribed ten thousand times a day in this country with excellent results. Why not? Because I prefer not to do that to my body and brain.
Acupuncture appears to be a good option. I missed my Initial Visit ( business emergency… ) but am scheduling another one. I’m a real cynic and am someone with a smidgen of medical training. I don’t give a crap for the Placebo Effect. Either the thing has real benefits or it does not. I would love it if it does. IF it does, it is not because I willed it to be so.
As for Western Medicine and what is documented and proven and approved and blah blah blah, the list widely accepted practices and medications that have been proven to be just a really bad idea is tremendous.
Some random ones float up to the surface.
- Thalidomide. cite
Does Thalidomide have use? Unquestionably, as the article cited shows. Was it a nightmarish disaster for pregnancies? You betcha.
- Trepanning. cite
- Radiation treatments for acne. ( first-hand witness. My mother was given these in the 1950’s. Did nothing for acne in the long term. Directly caused thyroid cancer. cite
All soundly endorsed by Western medicine. All utterly without value and dangerous.
There are others. TONS of others. But the point is well taken. Why not be open to many paths?
Cartooniverse
Are you going to try every non-medical treatment option that people claim works for them without any objective evidence that it actually does? Meditation? Prayer? Chanting and dancing? Leeches? These treatments are all exactly as valid as acupuncture.
Cynics do not expect acupuncture to work, just like they don’t expect rain-dances to change the weather. I’m sorry to inform you, but you’re not a cynic.
Leeches (and maggots) are both used medically.
Years ago, a friend suffered from horrible back pain. He went to a chiropracter for months, but the pain just got worse. Eventually, he decided to try acupuncture. The acupuncturist examined him & immediately told him to see a doctor.
He had pancreatic cancer. Even an early diagnosis probably would not have done much good. But the doctors were able to prescribe the drugs that made his last days somewhat bearable.
In this case, the “unscientific” acupuncturist had a better knowledge of the human body than the quack chiropractor.
I wouldn’t see an acupuncturist first, for any complaint. But scientific scrutiny has shown there are some benefits.
And that scientific scrutiny gives authority to recommendations about when acupuncture is* not* indicated. Better than just ignoring the topic.
If any of those have decent studies showing an effect on back pain, I’ll try them. Why not?
As others have said, your examples are woefully incorrect.
Let’s see now. Leeches? Right here.
Gotcher meditation right here.
And, since it was mentioned in refuting your (darned narrowminded) statement, let us not overlook the spectacular power of maggots.
I feel that it is well worth stepping back and looking at what is happening in this thread. People are reacting with real vitriol in their protestations that accupuncture does not work.
Why are they so afraid? Do they truly fear for my health and safety and well-being? I doubt it. Do they feel fear for the health and safety and well-being of others in here who have had success with non-Western medicine treatment regimens? I doubt it.
Why is it that posters in here are responding so stridently? It is not as though the OP’er has advocated committing acts of violence to others.
Interesting.
Oh- I was in line to enter a pain study at NYU Medical Center in NYC about 2 years ago. They were using leeches. I didn’t make it because the study was ONLY for arthritis in the knees. I have lower back pain. Pity.
The saliva in the leeches has an anaesthetic that has ( apparently ) zero side-effects. It is localized and remains for weeks if not longer in some patients. Hence the pain-relieving aspect.
Cartooniverse, all I can say to your first post here is, wow! You are willing to throw out the entire body of scientific medical knowledge because of 3 examples of mistakes that were made? Yes, at one time thalidomide and trepanning were common drugs/practices, but that was a long time ago and they failed because science tends to self-correct. What is shown to be invalid or dangerous is discarded. What is questionable or new is constantly re-tested until a satisfactory level of confidence is reached. Do you see anyone seriously suggesting that we revive any of those discredited practices?
Just because medical science once proposed a bad treatment doesn’t lend the slightest credence to the validity of acupuncture.
How about trumpetting some of the good and spectacular things about science, like the significant increase in life expectancy and decrease in infant mortality over the last 200 years; the elimination of polio and smallpox worldwide; and such now-common surgeries as joint replacement and organ transplants? Does the failure of X-ray treatments for acne make these any less valuable?
They have found uses for maggots, but actually they were considered the worst sort of infectio in “the good old days” and since the maggots were disease filled infected ones, not nice clean raised in a lab sterile maggots, they were likely right. Maggots meant that the flies have got your open wound, not a Good thing at all.
Yes, they have found medical usages for leeches. Nevertheless, The Medieval Theory of the 4 Humours is outdated quackery. It is pure co-incidence that leeches have been found to have medical usages in a few rare circumstances, as they were not used in that way as treatment under the The Medieval Theory of the 4 Humours .
From Wiki:*.The popularity of bloodletting in Greece was reinforced by the ideas of Galen, after he discovered the veins and arteries were filled with blood, not air as was commonly believed at the time. There were two key concepts in his system of bloodletting. The first was that blood was created and then used up, it did not circulate and so it could ‘stagnate’ in the extremities. The second was that humoral balance was the basis of illness or health, the four humours being blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile, relating to the four Greek classical elements of air, water, earth and fire. Galen believed that blood was the dominant humour and the one in most need of control. In order to balance the humours, a physician would either remove ‘excess’ blood (plethora) from the patient or give them an emetic to induce vomiting, or a diuretic to induce urination.
Galen created a complex system of how much blood should be removed based on the patient’s age, constitution, the season, the weather and the place. Symptoms of plethora were believed to include fever, apoplexy, and headache. The blood to be let was of a specific nature determined by the disease: either arterial or venous, and distant or close to the area of the body affected. He linked different blood vessels with different organs, according to their supposed drainage. For example, the vein in the right hand would be let for liver problems and the vein in the left hand for problems with the spleen. The more severe the disease, the more blood would be let. Fevers required copious amounts of bloodletting…Leeches could also be used. The withdrawal of so much blood as to induce syncope (fainting) was considered beneficial, and many sessions would only end when the patient began to swoon.*
Fevers are no longer treated by leeches, nor are headaches, or apoplexy.
Trepanning also finds itself in use today- rarely, true, but it is recognized. But not to let the demons out. It’s modern medical use is completely unrelated to Demonology or Possession- both of which are now considered nonsense scientifically speaking.
The needles used in acupuncture seem to work sometimes on certain conditions. Nevertheless;* Acupuncture, based upon “the free flow of qi (a difficult-to-translate concept that pervades Chinese philosophy and is commonly translated as “vital energy”), blood and body fluids (jin ye) throughout the body”* is outdated quackery. Although the needles do seem to work sometimes, for some ailments, they do not need to be placed in a manner according to “Traditional Chinese Medicine”- in other words, it seems to be another co-incidence.
Yes, leeches do work- but in a way completely un-related to Theory of the 4 Humours. (which has been proven to be psuedo-scientific nonsense) The needles also work, but also in a way completely un-related to the flow of qi- which is also psuedo-scientific nonsense.
That’s the difference between real medicine and acupuncture. The people doing that study said “we think this will work, and we think this is why. We’d like to test our idea and see if we’re right.” Acupuncture has a vague premise that has been proven to be incorrect, and does not provide any reliably documented results.
Apparently leeches have more medical use than I thought, though. That’s pretty interesting.