# Can we talk about Bill Cosby? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075 "2014-11-19T15:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/441 "2014-11-25T22:59:21Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > [A] multitude of people with _no reason to lie_? Not to be a smartass, but that’s unsubstantiated, too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/442 "2014-11-25T23:19:32Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Yes! That’s the pudding joke I was hoping for. The pudding joke we deserve, but not the one we need right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/443 "2014-11-26T01:52:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You keep saying “unsubstantiated” as if it means something specific. It doesn’t. Unsubstantiated: you keep using that word. \*“I do not think it means what you think it means.” \* 😃 > [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Not to be a smartass, but that’s unsubstantiated, too. (Seriously now…) Correct, those are unsubstantiated, but still there’s a lot of smoke here. The fire can’t be too far away, can it. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/444 "2014-11-26T19:16:00Z")
Last week, Howard Stern replayed a piece of an interview he did with Janice Dickinson back in 2006. Here is my transcription: From 2006 _Stern: Did you turn down Bill Cosby?_ Dickinson: Bill Cosby was the only guy I couldn’t write about in the book because Harper Collins is afraid of lawsuits. _Stern: But what happened? He got you? So he nailed you? You had sex with Bill Cosby?_ Dickinson: You’re so funny. _Stern: You’re saying the book company won’t allow you to write about certain people?_ Dickinson: Too afraid. Too afraid of that one. Wouldn’t touch that one. And I don’t want to get near that because I don’t have the sheckles that you do or that Cosby does. _Stern: I don’t know anything about this, how did he…_ Dickinson: The guy’s a bad guy, let me say that. He’s not a nice guy. He preys on women that’ve just come out of rehab. I’ll say that. If she’s lying for publicity, she’s really playing the long con. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/445 "2014-11-26T20:18:20Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > Dickinson: The guy’s a bad guy, let me say that. He’s not a nice guy. He preys on women that’ve just come out of rehab. I’ll say that. > > If she’s lying for publicity, she’s really playing the long con. For the sake of clarity I’m going to preface this by saying I do not think Dickinson is lying, nor do I have any ill-will toward her for coming forward in the way that she did (or at all, for that matter). I also have no interest in protecting Bill Cosby’s reputation. What conclusion do you want to see come out of this? If it’s for Bill Cosby to be viewed as a sexual predator, I think that’s been accomplished. If it’s for him to end up in prison, what sort of data is there to support the claims against him? While rape is among the gravest of crimes, I’m much more worried about setting a precedent where 8 years of animosity toward someone is enough to get them sent to prison than getting justice for a 32 year old rape case. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/446 "2014-11-26T21:04:42Z")
If Cosby ever goes to prison—there’s almost no chance that he will ever face criminal charges unless something much more recent comes to light—it will not be just because Janice Dickinson held a grudge for nine years. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/447 "2014-11-26T21:11:48Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > What conclusion do you want to see come out of this? If it’s for Bill Cosby to be viewed as a sexual predator, I think that’s been accomplished. If it’s for him to end up in prison, what sort of data is there to support the claims against him? While rape is among the gravest of crimes, I’m much more worried about setting a precedent where 8 years of animosity toward someone is enough to get them sent to prison than getting justice for a 32 year old rape case. Firstly, there are different types of “want.” If Bill Cosby did what he’s been accused of—and there are enough accusations that i think it’s likely he did—then i would “want” him to go to prison. But that want is a generalized belief about what he deserves. I recognize, however, that in most (possibly all?) of these cases, the Statute of Limitations has run out, and so he can’t even be charged. And i also recognize that, even if there are cases where the SoL has not expired, the evidence against Cosby probably consists almost entirely of the word of the women involved. In most cases, there are probably no third-party witnesses, or at least none who would be willing to testify against him. And it seems very unlikely that there’s any physical evidence either. Given all of this, i don’t “want” him to go to prison, because whatever i think about him as a person, i also believe that our justice system needs to hold itself to a higher standard of evidence than the court of public opinion. If there’s not enough evidence to convict him, then he shouldn’t go to prison. But your reference to “8 years of animosity” is completely stupid and irrelevant. If he raped her, then he raped her. And if he raped her, then i’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that any animosity she feels towards him might be justified. You seem to be dismissing it as a mere irrational grudge, which begs the very question we’re seeking to answer here: did he actually do it? Edit: And what **Ascenray** said. If you really think that a mere grudge would send him to prison, you really have no business discussing the justice system at all. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/448 "2014-11-26T21:25:58Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > For the sake of clarity I’m going to preface this by saying I do not think Dickinson is lying, nor do I have any ill-will toward her for coming forward in the way that she did (or at all, for that matter). I also have no interest in protecting Bill Cosby’s reputation. > > What conclusion do you want to see come out of this? If it’s for Bill Cosby to be viewed as a sexual predator, I think that’s been accomplished. If it’s for him to end up in prison, what sort of data is there to support the claims against him? While rape is among the gravest of crimes, I’m much more worried about setting a precedent where 8 years of animosity toward someone is enough to get them sent to prison than getting justice for a 32 year old rape case. Nobody wants to send him to jail. Nobody has advocated that. Everyone recognizes that the evidence for a legal case are not there. This is a non-issue. What I would like the outcome to be has relatively little to do with Mr. Cosby. He’s lived with himself and what he’s done for long time. That’s fine. What I care about has to do with women and men who may find themselves in similar situations as the victims. I want them to feel able to speak out, to get help and to stand up for their rights, even if they are harmed by someone richer and more powerful than themselves. Even if they were not chaste and pure. I want them to recognize that being drugged and raped is not just a date gone wrong, or a casting couch gone a bit to far, but rather a very real crime that they have a right to seek justice for. I want it to be known that these acts are not normal, they are not just a part of everyday life or Hollywood socializing. They are abnormal. They are not okay. I want them to know these acts are not a slip up. They are not a date gone a bit off the rails. They are not just an isolated mistake.The people who perpetuate these acts are sick. And they will continue to hurt people until someone speaks out. They should not be forgiven or forgotten. They should be prevented from hurting others. I want them to know this isn’t their fault. It’s not their fault for falling for it. It’s not their fault for participating in the lead up. It’s not their fault for saying “yes” to the pill or for not fighting hard enough or for having wanted to have (consensual) sex with that person previously. And for rapists- and they are out there- I want them to know that time will not erase their crimes. Money will not protect them. I want them to live in terror, every day and every night, that their entire world could be pulled out from under them. I want them to know they will never rest until they make things right. I want them to own up. I want them to apologize. I want them to repent. I want them to know it’s not a slip up. It’s not just a part of the game. It’s not some kind of extreme dating. There is a line that you do not cross. Rape hurts. Rape hurts people for decades. You don’t do it. Not even once. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/449 "2014-11-26T21:34:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by PunditLisa > > To me, this entire scenario is sounding an awful lot like “casting couches.” A man in power is using his clout to get sexual favors. Does the fact that many women (and men, I suppose) voluntarily cooperated, in order to land a job, excuse the executive’s behavior? Absolutely not. But if they cooperate, take the job, and then take the next one, and the next one, it’s hard to know where “prostitution” ends and “victimization” begins. The accusers keep coming up shady because Cosby targeted the wounded birds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/450 "2014-11-26T21:52:30Z")
Bravo, Even Sven. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/451 "2014-11-26T22:00:37Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you really think that a mere grudge would send him to prison, you really have no business discussing the justice system at all. I don’t think that that a grudge would send him to prison, nor do I think the comment was irrelevant, as it was in reference to the post I quoted. I don’t even know where you got the idea that I think Dickerson is acting on “a mere grudge”, given that I opened my post by indicating that I believe her accusations. > [@](#): > > I want them to feel able to speak out, to get help and to stand up for their rights, even if they are harmed by someone richer and more powerful than themselves. Me too, and I feel we’ve made a pretty big step toward that in the 30+ years this story takes place. However, I’m getting the vibe that many people here think there’s further action required – be it to protect victims or grant them the justice they deserve. I am curious what action you feel is required. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/452 "2014-11-26T22:09:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But your reference to “8 years of animosity” is completely stupid and irrelevant. I keep expecting some day to see a post of yours that doesn’t aggressively insult someone. I’m about to give up hope. P.S. - Aren’t you the guy who used to keep swearing he wasn’t going to engage me anymore only to keep coming back thread after thread and doing exactly that? And aren’t you the guy who left the board after having been suspended, swearing you wouldn’t come back as long as a certain mod was still here? And yet here you are, and so is the mod? And aren’t you the guy who once said to **Bricker** (IIRC) that I was dishonest but wasn’t aware of it? 😃 😃 😃 If I were **CinnamonBabka** , your opinion of my thinking would be pretty much the same as worthless. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/453 "2014-11-26T22:14:43Z")
I think the reason Janice’s interview with Stern would be brought up is to point out that some victims _did_ say things at the time (IE: that was from 2006, which in turn referenced her earlier biography). This counteracts the complete bullshit that none of them is believable because it’s all only supposedly coming out now. Nope. There’s evidence out there that he’d committed these heinous acts before and saying otherwise is just apologensia. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/454 "2014-11-26T22:20:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I were **CinnamonBabka** , your opinion of my thinking would be pretty much the same as worthless. It wasn’t a good first impression, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/455 "2014-11-26T22:20:13Z")
Who said it’s only coming out now? Many of these women were “Jane Does” in a lawsuit eight to ten years ago and are simply reiterating now what they said then. Which is one of the reasons that some of us are skeptical as perhaps by joining in on the lawsuit they were expecting or hoping for some form of settlement. Which they may also be doing now. On the other hand, they may have been telling the truth then, and they may be telling the truth now. But none of us know for sure which it is, and therein lies the rub. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/456 "2014-11-26T22:27:18Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > It wasn’t a good first impression, that’s for sure. If you stick around here for very long you’ll see that arrogance and insult combined with a thin veneer hoping to convey intelligence and thoughtfulness is pretty much **mhendo’s** standard method of operation. I’m glad to see you didn’t allow him to intimidate you or chase you off. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/457 "2014-11-26T22:38:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Bravo, Even Sven. Also. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/458 "2014-11-27T00:38:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Absolutely. Which is why it has to be dealt with on a case to case basis, depending on the evidence presented in each. No, it really doesn’t. The courts have to deal with it on a case by case basis, but it would be insane for you or I to do so. The evidence for any one allegation is probably not sufficient to sustain a conviction, and there’s no such thing in our justice system as a “clearly demonstrated pattern of criminal behavior” not specifically tied to one particular incident … but there is, in fact, a clearly demonstrated pattern of criminal behavior here. I’m one of the many people who really doesn’t want to believe these charges. I like living in a world that has an admirable, likable Bill Cosby in it. One allegation, unsupported by any additional evidence, I would be inclined to shrug off. “Well, I don’t know this woman, and I don’t know what happened.” Even two or three, given the length of time between now and then: same thing. Whenever there’s an allegation of wrong-doing, I almost always strive (some might say “strain”) to grant the benefit of the doubt. But, no. With so many independent accusations featuring such similar elements, we’re done with that. It’s beyond a reasonable doubt that Cosby has been repeatedly guilty of predatory sexual behavior. This is me granting the benefit of the doubt: “Maybe half of the allegations are false, and _maybe_ the worst he’s guilty of is routinely taking advantage of women who are unconscious/blackout-drunk.” But I don’t believe that. As an aside, some people have brought up the McMartin preschool case and similar incidents. This is not wholly out of bounds, because it does show that there can be circumstances that lead to a whole passel of accusations against someone being false. However, beyond pointing to the faintest plausibility, it’s not really instructive in this case. Those cases are dealing with young children, “recovered memories,” and an investigation in which specific people were asked about specific crimes instead of coming forward independently. All of the elements that led to false accusation there are absent in this case. It really has nothing to do with Cosby. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/459 "2014-11-27T00:45:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Speaking just to this point … > > The statute of limitations is a recognition that the outcome of the legal system is based on fallible human testimony. And on perishable evidence. > > The quality of both those things deteriorates over time. And after enough time passes, the quality is so low that the outcome of any trial would be little more valid than spinning a wheel of fortune. > > e.g. I’m nobody famous. Say tomorrow I get a court summons saying somebody is alleging that I date-raped them in college back in 1978. Or that I was the guy who stuck up their liquor store on October 27th 2001. > > So now we’re going to have a criminal trial where I’m the guest of honor. How likely is it that reliable witnesses will produce reliable testimony? Even if they fail to convict me, I still get dragged through the system, need to pay for my defense, have my reputation trashed, etc. And the taxpayers gets to pay for the court, the prosecutors, the detectives, etc. Lots of resources are consumed all around. To what good end? > > In many cases even proving that something happened to the complainant on that particular day would be difficult, much less that the specific person now on trial was the one who did it. > > There comes a point where the probable benefit to society is less than the probable cost. Remembering that one of the guiding tenets of our justice system is that it’s better to let the guilty go free than to imprison the innocent. > As you yourself say: “Now we can never really find out the truth of these allegations”. But the reason we can’t isn’t the lack of a trial now; it’s the passage of time. A trial now might create a lot of testimony, but the testimony’s connection to the actual truth of an incident 20 years ago would be slim at best. > > The saying “Justice delayed is justice denied” applies both ways. Neither victims nor defendants get a good result years later. > > Turning more towards the specifics of this case, it’d be a damn shame if indeed there were crimes that weren’t prosecuted when fresh due to celebrity immunity. Immunity, also spelled impunity, is one of the most corrosive cancers in a legal system or in a society. > > OTOH, if the reason they weren’t prosecuted when the crime was fresh was that the injured party wanted to ignore the whole thing, well they don’t get a do-over umpteen years later. And they knew, or should have known, that back then when the allegations were fresh. I totally agree with you, therefore whenever I hear of “New Evidence” being found for a 5 year old crime I cringe! ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/460 "2014-11-27T01:15:24Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > This is really my argument, too. We made him what he was and he earned what he has based on a persona that may or may not be reality. I see no difference between that and people using the same judgment call they did before, based on new information. If all people are doing is just deciding on Bill Cosby’s reputation, they can do that without deciding whether he committed rape. They can decide on his reputation based on any number of things. IMO, Bill Cosby is an old, irrelevant comedian who wasn’t much in the spotlight before this. But people are using this case as the icon and lightning rod for generalizing on all rape cases as you can see in **even sven** ’s comment. Those two discussions are different, yet they’re being overlaid on each other as though they can’t be separated. > [@even\_sven](#): > > What I care about has to do with women and men who may find themselves in similar situations as the victims. > > I want them to feel able to speak out, to get help and to stand up for their rights, even if they are harmed by someone richer and more powerful than themselves. Even if they were not chaste and pure. I want them to recognize that being drugged and raped is not just a date gone wrong, or a casting couch gone a bit to far, but rather a very real crime that they have a right to seek justice for. > > I want it to be known that these acts are not normal, they are not just a part of everyday life or Hollywood socializing. They are abnormal. They are not okay. I want them to know these acts are not a slip up. They are not a date gone a bit off the rails. They are not just an isolated mistake.The people who perpetuate these acts are sick. And they will continue to hurt people until someone speaks out. They should not be forgiven or forgotten. They should be prevented from hurting others. > > I want them to know this isn’t their fault. It’s not their fault for falling for it. It’s not their fault for participating in the lead up. It’s not their fault for saying “yes” to the pill or for not fighting hard enough or for having wanted to have (consensual) sex with that person previously. > > And for rapists- and they are out there- I want them to know that time will not erase their crimes. Money will not protect them. I want them to live in terror, every day and every night, that their entire world could be pulled out from under them. I want them to know they will never rest until they make things right. I want them to own up. I want them to apologize. I want them to repent. Let’s say there’s a place on the internet where people could go and tell their stories and name their rapist on decades-old allegations. No one checks these stories. Then a national publication gathers up all the allegations on a periodic basis and prints them. If your name shows up in there, everyone can see it. Your reputation could be ruined and employers can fire you on that basis. There’s no way to defend yourself because the allegations can be vague and very old. Even if they’re pretty specific charges, you might not have the resources to investigate or prove anything. Would you be advocating that? Because I think that’s a possible extension of what you’re suggesting. I’m not seeing that as an improvement for women’s rights because it might make allegations of rape victims seem less serious when they can be made so casually but can inflict so much potential damage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075.md?page=24)