# Can we talk about Bill Cosby? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075 "2014-11-19T15:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/101 "2014-11-20T03:41:20Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Since no one here knows who is a victim and who is not I don’t agree that there is “victim blaming” going on here. You should re-read **SA** ’s posts. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/102 "2014-11-20T03:43:31Z")
What did I say that equates to victim blaming? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/103 "2014-11-20T03:51:15Z")
Assuming the allegations are true, the following is what is known as “victim-blaming” > [@](#): > > It occurs to me that these women, all young and attractive at the time, were all seeking to benefit in some way through their association with Bill Cosby. It also occurs to me that, after allowing their relationship with him to progress to sex, and afterward not getting the roles/money/relationship/whatever that they hoped to get as a result, they wound up feeling used and resentful. > > It’s also possible that at some point Cosby gave one of these women some Benadryl to combat some flu-like symptoms they were experiencing, as he has claimed. Benadryl really can take the wind out of your sails and make you extremely tired and sleepy, but it certainly doesn’t make you incapable of resisting rape or not remembering what happened after you wake up. > > So, to escape their self-recriminations over their perception of having allowed themselves to be “used” by Cosby, they began to claim (and perhaps even convince themselves) that he drugged them, thereby allowing them to reclaim some of their lost self-esteem. Then, other women who’d found themselves in a similar situation heard about this and began to claim they were drugged and raped also, for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/104 "2014-11-20T03:51:28Z")
Claims made about events 30 to 40 years ago don’t impress me. The time to make these allegations was back then when the alleged crime occurred. Making these allegations now accomplishes nothing. How can Cosby even defended this many years later? Witness that could speak for him are not available. Records of where he was working and where he was on a specific day are long lost. Cosby has never been a source of any scandal his entire life. Married to the same woman. No drug allegations. Never staggered out of a bar drunk. The guy earned a PHD in education (1976) while pursing acting. He spent his free time studying instead of staggering out of bars like most celebrities. He created Fat Albert as a positive role model for minority kids. He contributes to many charities. It’s going to take some real evidence and not 30 to 40 year old accusations to convince me that this fine man has a Jekyll/Hyde persona. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/105 "2014-11-20T03:52:39Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Really? That’s a pretty crappy view of women to think that they would sleep with a star to get ahead then when that didn’t work resort to allegations of rape. It doesn’t say much for Cosby either that he would apparently get women by promising to help their careers without any intention of doing so. Also, you are right that while Benadryl makes you sleepy, it shouldn’t make you confused about what happened. > > OTOH, the Playboy connection is interesting since it’s at least been written about in several books about Hefner that he handed out Qualudes like candy to girls he wanted to sleep with, calling them “leg-openers”. I don’t doubt that Cosby did drugs with women he wanted to sleep with. I still don’t know whether he gave them drugs specifically to be able to rape them but I do find it hard to believe that these women would come forward to accuse him just because they somehow felt guilty about sleeping with him to get ahead. These are not unsuccessful women and most (Dickenson aside) have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from coming forward. If they say nothing, they continue on with their lives, but if they come forward, they are accused of being sluts who turned vindictive when they couldn’t get what they wanted by sleeping with a celebrity. And people wonder why they didn’t say anything?!! \*That’s a pretty crappy view of women to think that they would sleep with a star to get ahead then when that didn’t work resort to allegations of rape. \* Women? In general? What does this have to do with women in general? In Hollywood, it’s routine for actresses, singers, and dancers to fuck for parts, to fuck to get a rival actress on a TV show fired, to fuck to get the best producers for their albums, you name it. Not that it’s unheard of outside of Hollywood. This goes on, in varying degrees, everywhere, and always has. Really, if you’re having casual sex with people you just met an hour ago, for free, why not have sex to get a plum job or high profile role? Hell, I’ve had women offer to fuck me for a SAG voucher. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/106 "2014-11-20T04:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Women? In general? **What does this have to do with women in general**? > > In Hollywood, it’s routine for actresses, singers, and dancers to fuck for parts, to fuck to get a rival actress on a TV show fired, to fuck to get the best producers for their albums, you name it. **Not that it’s unheard of outside of Hollywood. This goes on, in varying degrees, everywhere, and always has.** _bolding added_ Your quotes above are internally inconsistent. You question why I talk about women in general, then you extrapolate your point to women in general. More specifically, though, I am not saying that that it is misogynistic to allege that women use sex to get ahead; I agree with you that it happens. What I am criticizing is the opinion that women who consciously use sex to get ahead would then, after their scheme fails, be so unable to deal with this fact that they would have to subconsciously convince themselves that they had been raped in order to deal with this fact… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/107 "2014-11-20T04:19:15Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Assuming the allegations are true, the following is what is known as “victim-blaming” See, this is the problem. Even by your own admission you are just blindly assuming the allegations are true, and then you reflexively accuse anyone who disagrees with your assumptions of misogyny and victim-blaming. Do you not see the problem with that way of thinking? With regard to Hefner and Quaaludes, I would be very surprised if he had to drug the women who came into his orbit in order to get them to sleep with him. There have been many unsubstantiated claims over the years regarding Hefner, the two Mansions, and drugs. None have ever been proven, and drugs have never been found on the occasions when the authorities have managed to stage a raid on the places. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/108 "2014-11-20T04:26:47Z")
I am not assuming the allegations are true. In order to define “victim-blaming” you have to assume a victim. If the allegations are true, you are victim-blaming. If the allegations are untrue you are misogynistic because you are assuming that women are so weak that they can’t deal with the fact that they tried to sleep with a star to get ahead and were rejected. The non-misogynistic view is that these women are opportunistic bitches who have something tangible to gain from their accusations, such as money or fame. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/109 "2014-11-20T04:29:07Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > More specifically, though, I am not saying that that it is misogynistic to allege that women use sex to get ahead; I agree with you that it happens. What I am criticizing is the opinion that women who consciously use sex to get ahead would then, after their scheme fails, be so unable to deal with this fact that they would have to subconsciously convince themselves that they had been raped in order to deal with this fact… I never said anything about a “scheme”. Some of the ways these women thought Cosby could benefit them were quite modest and wouldn’t have necessitated any sort of “scheme”. And I don’t believe my notions about what a handful of women might possibly have done in regard to Cosby equates to a blanket condemnation of all women, as the ridiculously overused accusation of misogyny suggests. If you made suggestions as to the _possible_ motives of a handful of guys who’d been accused of a rape that they may or may not have committed, would I be justified then in claiming you hate men? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/110 "2014-11-20T04:33:05Z")
[quote=“psychobunny, post:106, topic:705075”] > [@](#): > > Women? In general? **What does this have to do with women in general**? > > In Hollywood, it’s routine for actresses, singers, and dancers to fuck for parts, to fuck to get a rival actress on a TV show fired, to fuck to get the best producers for their albums, you name it. \*\*Not that it’s unheard of outside of Hollywood. This goes on, in varying degrees, everywhere, and always has.\*\*QUOTE] _bolding added_ > > Your quotes above are internally consistent. You question why I talk about women in general, then you extrapolate your point to women in general. > > More specifically, though, I am not saying that that it is misogynistic to allege that women use sex to get ahead; I agree with you that it happens. What I am criticizing is the opinion that women who consciously use sex to get ahead would then, after their scheme fails, be so unable to deal with this fact that they would have to subconsciously convince themselves that they had been raped in order to deal with this fact… My quotes _are_ internally consistent. But I think you meant “internally inconsistent”. It’s been demonstrated that some women will lie about being raped in order to cover up consensual sex that embarrassed or disgraced them. Lying about mercenary sex isn’t much different. [http://www.ocweekly.com/2006-02-09/news/great-dick-babe/](http://www.ocweekly.com/2006-02-09/news/great-dick-babe/) T > [@](#): > > his tale begins in the wee hours of June 6, 2004, when a distraught Tamara Anne Moonier entered a Fullerton police station. She said she’d been kidnapped a few hours earlier from a parking lot at Heroes Bar & Grill, hooded and driven to an unknown residence. Moonier, then 28, told police that a group of men brutally raped her at gunpoint for more than an hour, forced her to perform numerous degrading sex acts on film, demanded her silence and then released her. [snip] > > But Fullerton police refused to file charges. The suspects had voluntarily turned over the sex video Moonier had described. It showed no gun, no threats of violence and no force. > > In fact, the woman not only directed action at times but complimented penis sizes, complained about the lighting, nonchalantly took a cell phone call during the gangbang, yelled, “Get it up!” when some of the men lost their erections, called herself a slut and demanded ejaculations—in her mouth. > > She also laughed at least 27 times during the sex, moaned intensely when she wasn’t laughing and cheered the men to sexual heroics with, “Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!” > > “I just like sex,” Moonier said at one point on the tape. “I can’t help it.” > **[Hofstra student recants gang rape story](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32887532)** > > Hofstra University freshman who had claimed she was raped by five men in a dormitory bathroom changed her story after prosecutors confronted her with the revelation that a video of the encounter may have been recorded, a prosecutor said Thursday. > [@](#): > > Hofstra University freshman who had claimed she was raped by five men in a dormitory bathroom changed her story after prosecutors confronted her with the revelation that a video of the encounter may have been recorded, a prosecutor said Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/111 "2014-11-20T04:39:32Z")
I concede your point. I will withdraw misogynistic in general but not victim-blaming. Again, I am not stating which side is the truth, but if I were to state that even if these women voluntarily slept with Cosby, the fact that he gave them Benadryl before sex when he knew it could make them sleepy and that therefore they could claim that they were “drugged” even if they were fully conscious and aware and consenting meant that Cosby deserved to be publically accused of rape because he should have known better, that would also be victim-blaming. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/112 "2014-11-20T04:47:13Z")
I definitely know that there are false accusations of rape. This, however, is different from a case of somebody making a film that they later regretted or having sex with multiple men in college, when they know that their reputation will be damaged. Women who have previously been anonymous do not come forward decades later to cover up shame or embarrassment that has never been public and never has a risk of being public. This is a response to Belowjob; the above was a response to SA. Again, I am not saying that the allegations are true. I think it entirely possible that some of these women could have accused Cosby in order to get money or for other unknown reasons. I will say, though, that there are a lot of women who still appear to have little to gain and a lot to lose by coming forward. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/113 "2014-11-20T04:55:46Z")
I don’t want to believe this about Bill Cosby, but it does have the ring of truth to it, in my opinion. The only way it could be PROVEN of course, would be for damning evidence to magically materialize, or for him to confess, and neither of those seem likely. So it’s unlikely that he’ll answer for these crimes in any court other than that of public opinion. Guess it’s better than nothing. He’d better hope he’s been wise with his money, because I can’t see him earning very much in show biz from here on out. The fact that he’s signing up to do a new sitcom in his 70s is telling, in my opinion - bringing a sitcom to pilot and then to series is a LOT of work, I don’t care HOW far up the food chain you are. I suspect he’s out of money from paying off women and paying his lawyers to keep his name unsullied. AND, I’m inclined to believe Janice Dickinson as well - apparently she included this incident in her autobiography, and was convinced by the legal team to take it out. But the original version does exist - she was telling the exact same version of this several years ago. It’s not like she had mentioned this sort of incident and then thrown a dart at the Who’s Who in Hollywood and pinned it on some random celebrity. It was 1. Bill Cosby 2. she was drugged and 3. did not consent. It’s his M.O. I think he’s guilty as hell, and he’s going down. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/114 "2014-11-20T05:00:12Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I’m having an increasingly difficult time with the “trial by internet” stuff that seems to be happening more and more lately. I understand it - I truly do. The system is far from perfect, and the frustration at seeing people who are (at least seemingly) guilty of serious crimes go unpunished is real and justified. But, man. It just seems like the concept of “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law” seems to be going by the wayside awfully quickly. I’m sure there have been times where it’s been a good thing - when people are attacked who deserved it - but it’s completely uncontrollable. Mob justice isn’t a good basis for a society. > > I have no idea if Cosby is guilty or innocent, and I don’t want the responsibility for deciding that to be on my head. I’d like the system to work, and for crimes to be prosecuted and defended according to unbiased legal practices. I understand how far from that ideal we are, but I’m really uncomfortable with the way these things are played out in the public consciousness. > > Edit: And I’m hesitant to even bring it up, because I could quickly be lumped into the same pile as (checks forum) _people_ like this OP: [A lot of women are coming forward with rape accusations against Bill Cosby.. - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=741284) Which I don’t think I am. I agree with this. This is like the 5th case in recent months where the reputation of someone has been slaughtered and subsequent punishment has been decided on in the public domain. But at least the other cases had some kind of smoking gun. This case doesn’t even have that. It’s just a lot of he said/she said so far. At this point, because it’s a sexual case, the accusations of misogyny are already piling on for anyone even questioning that it might not have happened. What’s troubling is that some people are starting to conflate tabloid journals with evidence in a court of law as though they have the same standard. I’m conflicted because on the one hand, I’d like to see justice for women (and men too). On the other hand, internet railroading isn’t justice. I also disagree with people who say that these women have nothing to gain by coming forward now. If they’re successful in taking down the reputation of a hugely successful person, that’s enough impetus for some people to put forward an accusation that doesn’t even have to be substantiated. I have certainly seen people make false accusations for a lot less. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/115 "2014-11-20T05:11:03Z")
Yeah, evidence would be a good thing. Witnesses, Police investigations reports. Complaints. Otherwise these are old and stale allegations and should be treated the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/116 "2014-11-20T05:24:52Z")
> [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > I don’t want to believe this about Bill Cosby, but it does have the ring of truth to it, in my opinion. > > The only way it could be PROVEN of course, would be for damning evidence to magically materialize, or for him to confess, and neither of those seem likely. So it’s unlikely that he’ll answer for these crimes in any court other than that of public opinion. > > Guess it’s better than nothing. > > He’d better hope he’s been wise with his money, because I can’t see him earning very much in show biz from here on out. The fact that he’s signing up to do a new sitcom in his 70s is telling, in my opinion - bringing a sitcom to pilot and then to series is a LOT of work, I don’t care HOW far up the food chain you are. I suspect he’s out of money from paying off women and paying his lawyers to keep his name unsullied. > > AND, I’m inclined to believe Janice Dickinson as well - apparently she included this incident in her autobiography, and was convinced by the legal team to take it out. But the original version does exist - she was telling the exact same version of this several years ago. It’s not like she had mentioned this sort of incident and then thrown a dart at the Who’s Who in Hollywood and pinned it on some random celebrity. It was 1. Bill Cosby 2. she was drugged and 3. did not consent. It’s his M.O. > > I think he’s guilty as hell, and he’s going down. Going down? No, he won’t be. Statute of limitations. On top of that, many of the allegations aren’t unambiguously clear. The marquee accuser, for example, had consenual sex with Cosby after the sexual assault. This complicates everything and makes it practically impossible to get a conviction. No matter what, Cosby gets to keep his money. Even if he lost 2/3 of it, he’ still have 100 million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/117 "2014-11-20T05:31:30Z")
Cosby keeps his money but his reputation in Education and show business will never recover. A sixty year career in comedy and years of charitable service brought down by a few weeks of completely unproven ancient allegations. Why do we take such pleasure in creating public heroes and then tear them down? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/118 "2014-11-20T06:25:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If it’s true that he drugged women all his life then one of America’s beloved TV icons is a psychopath. Certainly, though, we’ve seen precisely that sort of revelation in Britain lately. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/119 "2014-11-20T06:41:54Z")
This isn’t one woman making these claims. This isn’t two women. This isn’t three. It’s 14 at the moment. 14. We are not being asked to put him in prison, or to make a compensatory award. We are being asked to consider that this man is not safe to be around if you are a woman. I’ll definitely consider that these allegations could correctly describe history. I won’t be doing business with Dr. Cosby. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075/120 "2014-11-20T06:50:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The guy earned a PHD in education (1976) while pursing acting. Cosby’s doctorate (actually it’s an Ed.D., not a Ph.D.) is a joke. He wasn’t required to attended classes and received course credit for his TV appearances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-talk-about-bill-cosby/705075.md?page=7)