# Can we trust Democrats not to be dangerously naive about radical Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692 "2008-10-20T01:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/1 "2008-10-20T01:47:57Z")
[Per this Salon article](http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/10/20/bhl/) Bernard-Henri Lévy asserts that the the left (worldwide) is in danger of being overly tolerant of, and naive about, radical Islamist movements. I think he has an excellent point and if the Democrats assume power, being unclear about where our realpolitik interests lie is a luxury we cannot afford. Are Democrats up to the task of being vigilant, and not encouraging radical Islamists to think they will have an easier time playing the Democrats if they make the right placating noises? > [@](#): > > But in the name of tolerance there can be also some crimes – not committed but veiled … For example, those who tell us that we have to be tolerant of the radical Islamist movements. Those who tell us that being tolerant means trying to understand their reasons and their justifications. Those who tell us that, about women, to veil the face of a woman is just a customary habit, which we Westerners are not allowed to judge according to the standard of human rights. This is a very bad thing. > > This idea that every habit should be respected, every custom should be accepted because it belongs to a whole and that if we take a piece, we break the whole – this is one of the counter-effects of tolerance. And you have in America a lot of people who said, why should you ask the Indian people to resign the pattern of the castes that belong to their culture? Why should you oblige this or that tribe, people in Africa, to resign the excision of the clitoris of the little girl? It belongs to their culture ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/2 "2008-10-20T01:51:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Are Democrats up to the task of being vigilant, and not encouraging radical Islamists to think they will have an easier time playing the Democrats if they make the right placating noises? What Democrats support the caste system and clitoral removal? Doesn’t the whole argument collapse under its own weight at that point? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/3 "2008-10-20T01:58:30Z")
What **Frank** said. If Levy wants to discuss actual policies of actual democrats we can do that. But all he does is pull up ludicrous strawmen right from Free Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/4 "2008-10-20T01:58:53Z")
Hopefully Democrats work to remove the extremism in all religions… …or at least pay no lip service to those vocal minorities. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/5 "2008-10-20T02:00:03Z")
I think we can trust all Democrats to resist efforts to institute Sharia law. I also think we can trust a lot of Republicans to try to incite a blind terror about Islam. They’ve done it prety consistently for the last seven years. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/6 "2008-10-20T02:00:33Z")
but. but… what if the democrats sell atomic secrets to North Korea? I mean, it’s well known that democrats are not real Americans, and are traitors. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/7 "2008-10-20T02:03:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > but. but… what if the democrats sell atomic secrets to North Korea? I mean, it’s well known that democrats are not real Americans, and are traitors. Yeah, like that FDR and Truman. They only led us through the Depression, WWII and the beginning of the Cold War to lull us into a false sense of security so they could sell us out to the Islamofascists. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/8 "2008-10-20T02:04:34Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Per this Salon article](http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/10/20/bhl/) Bernard-Henri Lévy asserts that the the left (worldwide) is in danger of being overly tolerant of, and naive about, radical Islamist movements. I think he has an excellent point and if the Democrats assume power, being unclear about where our realpolitik interests lie is a luxury we cannot afford. ARe you losing sleep about this at night? I mean, where exactly do YOUR _realpolitik interests_ lie? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/9 "2008-10-20T02:07:35Z")
I think you can expect Democrats to pursue a more nuanced and informed foreign policy, which to the ill-informed is often interpreted as naive. For example: clitoral removal is not a muslim practice, but a traditional practice in some parts of Africa (and clitoral removal is also practiced in parts of Africa by non-muslims). You see, by actually taking the time to understand complex issues, Democrats will hopefully avoid issues like invading a nation that had nothing to do with 9-11 as a response to 9-11. Also, I think a Democrat foreign policy will understand that there is not a finite number of radical muslims and once we kill the last one we will be done, rather a Democratic foreign policy will endeavor to reduce the conditions where radicalism can flourish (such as in occupied Iraq). The Democratic approach requires more effort and doesn’t fit unto a bumper sticker, but I think you’ll be pleased with the results as compared to the last 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/10 "2008-10-20T02:14:35Z")
Thank goodness George Bush wasn’t in the pocket of the Saudis, or hell bent on ignoring islamic terrorism while plowing billions into a missile defence shield, or rooting out Arabic translators in the armed forces for catching teh gay. Otherwise, there might have been some kind of masive terrorist attack under his watch or something. Oh those naive Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/11 "2008-10-20T02:21:58Z")
Actually I have the opposite worry about Obama: That he’ll be tempted into some ill-concieved bombing operation just to prove his “I’m a real American against radical Islam” bonafides. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/12 "2008-10-20T02:23:13Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Per this Salon article](http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/10/20/bhl/) Bernard-Henri Lévy asserts that the the left (worldwide) is in danger of being overly tolerant of, and naive about, radical Islamist movements. I think he has an excellent point and if the Democrats assume power, being unclear about where our realpolitik interests lie is a luxury we cannot afford. > > Are Democrats up to the task of being vigilant, and not encouraging radical Islamists to think they will have an easier time playing the Democrats if they make the right placating noises? Democrats were whining about those pesky Taliban back in the 90s. Democrats were whining about the Wahibists in Saudi Arabia back in the 90s. Hell, Democrats in the transition in late 2000, early 2001 tried to warn the incoming Bushistas that one Osama bin Ladin was the most dangerous terrorist in the world. Democrats like Max Cleland and John Kerry and Bob Kerrey did not sit out the Vietnam war in the Texas Air National Guard, unlike a certain craven coward deserter Republican. Democrats were not the Bin Ladin family business partners, Republicans by the name of Bush were. Democrats did not finance Hitler’s Germany, Republicans by the name of Bush did. Democrats did not call for a Pearl Harbor type attack on America in the late 1990s, but Republicans Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz did [http://www.newamericancentury.org/](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) > [@](#): > > Further, the process of transformation, > even if it brings revolutionary change, is > likely to be a long one, absent some > catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a > new Pearl Harbor. [http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf](http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf) see page 51 of the document, page 63 in the pdf Edited to fix quote ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/13 "2008-10-20T02:32:58Z")
What I like about the OP is that it states a position in the form of a question? Doing it this way means there is no need to back up the position, because it was a question not a statement? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/14 "2008-10-20T02:41:35Z")
I got here to late and every one of my points was made better than I would have by the jerks above me in the thread. So instead I’m whipping out pom-poms. “Rah!” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/15 "2008-10-20T02:41:53Z")
There was a similar discussion on the Pit that showed that it is really the Republicans the ones that do not bother much with human rights in radical Islamic states until it is convenient to do so when they need to justify wars. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6742721&postcount=88](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6742721&postcount=88) Some links from that thread: [http://hrw.org/campaigns/pakistan/](http://hrw.org/campaigns/pakistan/) > **[Mother Jones Magazine on "The Great Theft", 10.18.05](http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/mojomaontgrt.html)** > > The Great Theft > > A moderate Muslim's struggle > to wrestle Islam from the extremists. > > Melanie Colburn > > October 18, 2005 > > In his new book, The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists, Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl explores the poorly-understood... Human rights and other leftist organizations do record and protest against human rights abuses in Islamic nations, there is a problem when an administration is close to some of the Islamic nations that are the worst abusers and ignores that using the military to solve problems turns the life of dissenters in countries like Iran into a nightmare. Shirin Ebadi, Nobel price winner because of her activism in Iran had this to say: > [@](#): > > Q: I wanted to move on to President Bush’s war on terrorism. Here’s a quote of yours: “One day they help the Taliban rise to power and the next they attack Afghanistan with the excuse of ousting the Taliban regime.” If the United States is fighting the war on terrorism in the wrong way, then what is the right way to fight Islamic fundamentalism and Al Qaeda? > > Ebadi: Certainly, the fight against terrorism is a legitimate fight. And certainly whoever commits terrorism should be brought to justice. Unfortunately, the United States and a few other governments have used the war on terrorism as a way of violating human rights. I am referring to the case of the Guantánamo Bay prisoners. This violation of the rights of prisoners has been so unbelievable that the United Nations has reminded the United States repeatedly that the treatment of prisoners should take place according to the preestablished conventions of the United Nations. > > I also want to raise this important question of whether the punishment of terrorists has led to a decline in the acts of terrorism that we have witnessed. Unfortunately, the answer is a negative, since terrorism seems to be on a rise, not a decline. We need to do away with what is causing terrorism in the first place. Terrorism is based on two major pillars: One is injustice, and the other is a certainty of attitude, the notion that their version of the story is the correct one. This way of thinking–this self-certainty–is based on not being educated. Once you get exposed to other cultures, civilizations, and ways of thinking, this self-certainty should evaporate. How do you do away with this? By promoting education throughout the world. And we need to do away with injustice throughout the world, which is a major culprit. When a person is humiliated, when his rights are being violated, and he does not have the proper education, naturally he gravitates toward terrorism. We also have to acknowledge that certain groups and countries benefit from waging war. Instead of dealing with the causes of terrorism, they let terrorism serve as a justification for war. Unfortunately, violence begets violence. And this is how the war on terrorism seems to be going at this juncture. A lot of people are losing their lives. Many children are losing their parents. Too many houses are being destroyed. And, unfortunately, the arms industry seems to flourish. > > … > > Q: In January 2002, President Bush named Iran as part of the “axis of evil.” What effect has this had in Iran, especially on democratic forces? > > Ebadi: I have never agreed with President Bush’s argument regarding the axis of evil. Unfortunately, fundamentalists in Iran have used this as an excuse to brand us as allies of Mr. Bush. When we criticize in Iran the actions of the government, the fundamentalists say that we and the Bush Administration are in the same camp. The funny thing is that human rights activists and Mr. Bush can never be situated in the same group. Shirin Ebadi.(The Progressive Interview)(Interview) From: The Progressive | Date: September 1, 2004 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/16 "2008-10-20T03:44:15Z")
Wasn’t it Bush that _held hands_ with the Saudi Prince even after 17 Saudi citizens conspired to kill thousands of Americans? That was in public, he probably didn’t even get a reach-around in private. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/17 "2008-10-20T03:51:03Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Wasn’t it Bush that _held hands_ with the Saudi Prince even after 17 Saudi citizens conspired to kill thousands of Americans? That was in public, he probably didn’t even get a reach-around in private. Crown Prince then, King now. [Abdullah-Bush Stroll Strikes Nerve - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveningnews/main691413.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/18 "2008-10-20T04:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I think he has an excellent point and if the Democrats assume power, being unclear about where our realpolitik interests lie is a luxury we cannot afford. I think that our realpolitik interests lie in abandoning the foolish shortsightedness of realpolitik. Hasn’t anyone else noticed that an alarming number of our enemies got where they are through American support, because they were “our dictator”? Yeah, upholding freedom and democracy like we always talk about might be a little painful in the short run, but it’d avoid a lot of problems in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/19 "2008-10-20T05:51:48Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Are Democrats up to the task of being vigilant, and not encouraging radical Islamists to think they will have an easier time playing the Democrats if they make the right placating noises? The exact opposite; the radicals fear the Democrats and love the Republicans. They’ve had eight years to watch the Republicans grind America down, crippling us politically, morally, economically, militarily. The Republicans flail about creating enemies where there were none before, while failing to strike the target. Clinton **catches** the terrorists who attacked the WTC on HIS watch; Bush on the other hand fails to catch Osama Bin Laden, destroys Iraqi secularism, kills Saddam Hussein ( a major enemy of Bin laden ), smears America’s reputation with mud, and in general acts like he might as well be an employee of Bin Laden sent to screw America over and recruit people to radical Islam. Not that I think Bush is, but if he was he’d act pretty much like he has. The Republicans are, among their other flaws, incompetent fools. Any sensible enemy of America will wish for a McCain victory, and another four years minimum of America sabotaging itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/20 "2008-10-20T08:23:03Z")
Well I’m only a foreigner but I think that you Democrats should be ashamed of yourselves for pointing the finger of derision at those on the Right who are obviously very concerned about a womans basic Human right not to be forced to wear a veil. But of course ALL abortions should be banned even if going through with the birth will kill the mother… But at least she wont have to wear a veil while she dying… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692.md?page=2)