# Can we trust Democrats not to be dangerously naive about radical Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692 "2008-10-20T01:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/21 "2008-10-20T14:01:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > What Democrats support the caste system and clitoral removal? Doesn’t the whole argument collapse under its own weight at that point? No caste system in Islam! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/22 "2008-10-20T14:33:37Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well I’m only a foreigner but I think that you Democrats should be ashamed of yourselves for pointing the finger of derision at those on the Right who are obviously very concerned about a womans basic Human right not to be forced to wear a veil. I think that was … what, the 4th excuse for invading Iraq? I lost track after Weapons of Mass Destruction, They hate our freedom, Remember 9/11, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/23 "2008-10-20T14:56:59Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well I’m only a foreigner but I think that you Democrats should be ashamed of yourselves for pointing the finger of derision at those on the Right who are obviously very concerned about a womans basic Human right not to be forced to wear a veil. …unless she lives in Saudi Arabia. Then they seem remarkably unconcerned. ---
**Author:** ![IClaudius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c37758/32.png) [@IClaudius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IClaudius)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/24 "2008-10-20T15:12:21Z")
Amazing that these sort of threads can come up when it is the Democrats who were the party of FDR, Truman and Dean Acheson not the Republicans who sat on the sidelines. It is the Democratic Party in which the [spirit of Ike lives on](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020102621.html). It is the Democrats who have the most sophisticated bipartisan foreign policy team, least associated with the neo-conservative failure, and less driven by emotionalism or domestic policy calculation. Accordingly, the Democrats have received, far and away, the most endorsements from elder statement, foreign policy experts, and respected mastheads. Any appraisal of the two parties, leaves little doubt which is better capable of addressing the challenges of the future, which involve far more numerous challenges than simply confrontations with Islamism. [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa\_fact\_lemann](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_lemann) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/25 "2008-10-20T15:30:22Z")
> [@Bernard-Henri Lévi](#): > > And you have in America a lot of people who said, why should you ask the Indian people to resign the pattern of the castes that belong to their culture? Why should you oblige this or that tribe, people in Africa, to resign the excision of the clitoris of the little girl? It belongs to their culture … “A lot of people” are saying this? Which ones? Has Lévi ever actually spoken to any American progressives or liberals or is this based on the writings of some fringe characters? ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/26 "2008-10-20T15:56:38Z")
> [@astro](#): > > **Are Democrats up to the task of being vigilant, and not encouraging radical Islamists to think they will have an easier time playing the Democrats if they make the right placating noises?** One thing I like about present day democrats like Obama, is that they subscribe to the wisdom of know and talk to your enemies, respect them and keep em close. Repubs OTOH, conjure up labels with a sneer like “radical Islam,” liberal, socialist, liberal, terrorist, communist. err…did I say LIBERAL? Where liberal = the worst kind of evil.:rolleyes: What’s really interesting is that they do not see extreme right wing fundamentalist looney bin Christians as radical kooky. Sit and listen in on a conversation between born again Bible believing Baptist and an old-school Catholic and you’d wonder how many GODs ruled this universe with each one of them claiming to have the most powerful one, and suggesting that all who do not believe in their version of the almighty will be visited with all kinds of unkindness before and after their death. The beliefs some these folks hold in this country(and they are a powerful voting block) worries me ten times more than any so-called radical muslim ever will. Many of these fundies are just simply nuts, but don’t know it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/27 "2008-10-20T20:50:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No caste system in Islam! :rolleyes: Go back and read the last paragraph in the OP, please? For that matter clitoridectomy is not in Islam either, it’s a tribal thing. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/28 "2008-10-20T20:55:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > For that matter clitoridectomy is not in Islam either, it’s a tribal thing. Well, there is a certain, “everything that is not mandatory is prohibited” air to Islam, so it’s suprising that the religion lets the tribalism get away with things like that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/29 "2008-10-20T21:09:24Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well I’m only a foreigner but I think that you Democrats should be ashamed of yourselves for pointing the finger of derision at those on the Right who are obviously very concerned about a womans basic Human right not to be forced to wear a veil. Assuming that they actually cared, they screwed that up as well; women had more rights, freedom and opportunity under Saddam ( including more ability to not wear a veil ), than they did under the American occupation and the collaborationist government. And yes, I know you being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/30 "2008-10-20T21:17:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “A lot of people” are saying this? Which ones? Has Lévi ever actually spoken to any American progressives or liberals or is this based on the writings of some fringe characters? I think that Lévi is right on the money… as regards the European Left. The American Left is a very different beast, with very different origins, a fact he might not be fully aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/31 "2008-10-20T21:35:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that Lévi is right on the money… as regards the European Left. The American Left is a very different beast, with very different origins, a fact he might not be fully aware of. Doesn’t he pose as some kind of grand explicateur of America for Europe? If this is an example of his insight into America and Americans, I’d hate to think that Europeans are listening to him. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/32 "2008-10-20T21:48:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The American Left is a very different beast, with very different origins, a fact he might not be fully aware of. Didn’t _anybody_ read the last paragraph of the quote in the OP? > [@](#): > > And you have in America a lot of people who said, … ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/33 "2008-10-20T22:30:41Z")
I like to think a Democratic adminstration will reverse the neocon policy of [excluding career Arab analysts](http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=282) from the process in dealing with Arab countries, and actually make use of the expertise these people have built up over the course of their careers. > [@](#): > > An Arabist exodus is part of the price Americans are paying for Bush’s destructive hurtle into a needless war. Weeks before the invasion, John Brady Kiesling, who has been posted both to Israel and the Arab world, resigned in protest against US foreign policy along with two other State Department veterans. “Why does our President condone the swaggering and contemptuous approach to our friends and allies this Administration is fostering, including among its most senior officials?” Kiesling wrote to Secretary of State Colin Powell. “Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security.” The subtext was clear: By listening to fabulists in the Pentagon and White House, instead of his eyes and ears in the nation’s outposts abroad, the President was leading the country into disaster. > [@](#): > > When, in the run-up to war, Powell tried to dispatch a team of Arab specialists to help rebuild Iraq’s government ministries, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his aides vetoed the list of names. The State Department’s Future of Iraq Project, which accurately predicted widespread looting and insurgency after Saddam’s removal, was intercepted and buried by the Pentagon. > [@](#): > > The Arabists’ nemeses are familiar to anyone concerned about the integrity and direction of US foreign policy: Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith, Deputy Under Secretary of Defense Bill Luti, National Security Council senior director Elliott Abrams, former Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle–all of whom have since the Reagan years counseled a get-tough approach to the Arabs and unconditional support for Israel that explicitly excludes input from the State Department. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/34 "2008-10-20T23:14:42Z")
This is one of things Republicans love to harp on about, but has ABSOLUTELY no basis in truth. Case in point, as mentioned in OP, Female Circumsicision (aka FGM), not that has very much to do with radical Islam (its also practised in anamist and christian areas of Africa): > [@](#): > > The United States has not given FGM the attention or the illegal status that many other nations have given it. The United Kingdom has a full-fledged and longstanding anti-FGM movement that involves the country’s social-service agencies. France, Canada, Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden, and Belgium all have outlawed the practice. The first attempt to prohibit FGM here died in the previous Congress. **However, the legislation has been reintroduced by its original co-sponsors, Representatives Pat Schroeder, of Colorado, and Barbara-Rose Collins, of Michigan. Senator Harry Reid has proposed similar legislation in the Senate**. Three states, New York, Minnesota, and North Dakota, have passed laws making the practice of FGM a felony unless it is medically necessary. > **[Female Circumcision Comes to America - 95.10](https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/fgm/fgm.htm)** > > Atlantic Unbound: The Atlantic Monthly Magazine Online All the mentioned politicians are DEMOCRATIC. ---
**Author:** ![IClaudius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c37758/32.png) [@IClaudius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IClaudius)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/35 "2008-10-20T23:23:00Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > This is one of things Republicans love to harp on about, but has ABSOLUTELY no basis in truth. Case in point, as mentioned in OP, Female Circumsicision (aka FGM), not that has very much to do with radical Islam (its practised in anamist and christian areas of Africa): > [Female Circumcision Comes to America - 95.10](http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/fgm/fgm.htm) > > All the mentioned politicians are DEMOCRATIC. Never let the facts get in the way of glorious, some people have said pseudo journalism and a super-convincing personal anecdote about moral relativist family members somehow telling us something meaningful about the incoming administration. It’s complete garbage. You see this kind of dishonest naval gazing pop up from time-to-time. Essentially they’re made up claims that are universities are full of “feminists” who defend FGM and acid-throwing, chauvinist, religious, caste patriarchy. I mean, the world can basically be divided into those who know enough about the subject to not make a fool of themselves in claiming such nonsense, and those more interested in faux moral outrage. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/36 "2008-10-21T00:10:32Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Well, there is a certain, “everything that is not mandatory is prohibited” air to Islam, so it’s suprising that the religion lets the tribalism get away with things like that. Do you know _anything_ about it? West African Islam, at least, is a little unorthodox to say the least. Traditional beliefs are deeply wound into the practice of Islam there. The main religious figures are the marabouts, who often function as traditional healers, vendors of spells and amulets, and perform other tasks that have a lot more to do with traditional practice than Islam. My neighborhood mosque in Cameroon used to keep me up at night using the minaret loudspeaker to sell love potions and magic study-aids. Drinking alcohol persists as a major part of the culture as does a solid belief in traditional sorcery, etc. Dress norms can be deeply different that what you’d expect. More than once women would show up at my door with their prayer scarves dutifully thrown around their heads, but no shirt on underneath. And when it comes time to do the traditional dance- traditionally done by young women with nothing more than undies on- there were no objections. The best analogy would be the hybrid Catholic-traditional church in Guatemala, where it’s possible to find small shrines to local gods in dark corners of churches, and where much of the doctrine is explicitly understood to be a simple metaphor covering traditional beliefs. Since Islam has no central authority, there is no central authority to condemn these acts. There are local groups who speak out on practices they consider un-Islamic or otherwise generally bad. And there are plenty of local groups who speak out against FGM. In Mali I was surprised to see no shortage of anti-FGM signs, tee-shirts, pagne (kind of a fabric used for clothes that sometimes has a message and can function like a tee shirt does for us.) etc. In Cameroon FGM was only practiced by a few ethnic groups- the Arab Choa’s got a lot of shit about it, but a lot of that was tied up in anti-Arab sentiment. And the other groups were small isolated groups in the North-West province who I think may even have been Christian. Summed up- FGM and Islam in Africa is complicated, but there is no shortage of local and International opposition to it. Including among liberals. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/37 "2008-10-21T01:06:11Z")
[quote=“astro, post:1, topic:468692”] Can we trust Democrats not to be dangerously naive about radical Islam? QUOTE] And a second more blatantly obvious point, how more “Dangerously Niave” can you get than a president who lanches an invasion of Muslim country, that does now know that the [Muslim world is divided into Sunni and Shia](http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ambassador_claims_shortly_before_invasion_Bush_0804.html). Whatever the strengths and weaknesses of the next administration it is going to be pretty hard for it to beat the bar set by the current one when it comes to “Dangerous Niavety” ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/38 "2008-10-21T02:42:09Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Wasn’t it Bush that _held hands_ with the Saudi Prince even after 17 Saudi citizens conspired to kill thousands of Americans? That was in public, he probably didn’t even get a reach-around in private. This is an outrageous libel against President Bush! Only 15 of the hijackers were actually Saudis. I expect an apology forthwith. Good day, sir. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/39 "2008-10-21T04:43:50Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Indian people to resign the pattern of the castes that belong to their culture? I realize the OP is racked with “Dangerous Naivety” from top to but, I gotta bring up this point as well. Ignoring for a second the fact (as other posters have pointed out) that the Indian caste system is totally unrelated to “radical Islam”, my question is this… What, in the opinion of the OPer, can ANY American government, of either party, POSSIBLY do to abolish a caste system in a rising, nuclear equipped, power on the other side of world. When India’s OWN GOVERNMENT has repeatedly tried and failed to abolish it [themselves](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India). And does the OPer FAVOR “affirmative action” when it comes to other countries, if so what possible reason does he have for thinking the Republicans would be the party to enforce it ? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692/40 "2008-10-21T05:48:50Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You see, by actually taking the time to understand complex issues, Democrats will hopefully avoid issues like invading a nation that had nothing to do with 9-11 as a response to 9-11. Also, I think a Democrat foreign policy will understand that there is not a finite number of radical muslims and once we kill the last one we will be done, rather a Democratic foreign policy will endeavor to reduce the conditions where radicalism can flourish (such as in occupied Iraq). That about sums it up perfectly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-trust-democrats-not-to-be-dangerously-naive-about-radical-islam/468692.md?page=3)