# Can "White Nationalists" use the immigration issue to reach the mainstream? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554 "2010-01-11T20:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/21 "2010-01-12T01:48:33Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > And just what activities of substance have they actually been doing? Terrorizing minorities, or putting up poorly-designed websites? From the same Democracy Now! piece: > [@](#): > > ANJALI KAMAT: And can you talk about the impact of the right-wing media, figures like Glenn Beck, and what this does? > > CHIP BERLET: Sure. I mean, what people like Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs do is they provoke an even angrier response. They whip up this anger, but they point it toward scapegoats. And their scapegoats are overwhelmingly not just liberals, but people on the left—community organizers, Mexican immigrants, Muslims, all kinds of folks that are out in middle America. And their—some of their angry neighbors are looking at them as the cause of this problem with our society and with our economy. > > So, what you have is this problem here, which Sara Robinson and David Neiwert have talked about, in especially the book _The Eliminationists,_ where once you have a right-wing populist movement and you have political figures in the Republican Party embracing it and saying they’re the real patriots and you have media demagogues whipping up more and more anger, this is a very volatile mix. > > It is, in fact, without, you know, using the term incorrectly, the mix that turns a right-wing populist movement into a neo-fascist movement. And the political theory now about fascism is that it’s a right-wing populist, ultra-nationalist movement that turns into a more militant and aggressive mode. Now that’s—you know, it’s not going to happen here. You’re not going to have a mass fascist movement. But along the way, this anger being focused on scapegoats, by the Glenn Becks and the Lou Dobbs and the O’Reillys, leads some people to decide to beat up their neighbors, and it leads others to decide to go out and kill their neighbors. And that’s already happened. Some instances of that given in [_The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right,_](http://www.amazon.com/Eliminationists-Hate-Radicalized-American-Right/dp/0981576982/orcinus-20/) by David Neiwert; review [here.](http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=how_hate_groups_went_mainstream) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/22 "2010-01-12T02:13:28Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > :rolleyes: Whatever, the point remains. This isn’t about demographics like “white people,” it’s about very specific groups of people: militia members, and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are a demographic group; militia members are not. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There is a shitload of crime being committed by illegal immigrants. (Have you ever read about MS-13? Read about it.) This is, legitimately, something for people to worry about. Militia activity is trivial in comparison. No, **crime** in general is, legitimately, something for people to worry about. And racist radicals whipping up a climate of hatred and scapegoating is, legitimately, quite another thing for people to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/23 "2010-01-12T02:39:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Alarmism about militias is far more ridiculous than alarmism about illegal immigrants. > > How many people in the US have been killed by militia members in the past year? And how many have been killed by people who are in this country illegally? (That includes people killed by illegal aliens driving drunk, as well as gang/drug related murders and other street crime.) I’m not a statistician but I suspect the latter number will be higher - unless there was some massacre carried out by militias in Montana or Michigan that I’m unaware of. Or Oklahoma City, Murrah Building. Not va year ago but it was ugly. But the Secret Service says the death threats on the President are at an all time high. Last I heard was more than 30 a day. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/24 "2010-01-12T02:39:32Z")
_We stand here in defiance of tyranny like George Washington did, like Ben Franklin did, our forefathers!_ Hmm, I wonder why he didn’t mention Thomas Jefferson? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/25 "2010-01-12T02:39:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Illegal immigrants are a demographic group; militia members are not. They’re both demographic groups. They’re both defined groups with specific characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/26 "2010-01-12T02:59:55Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Or Oklahoma City, Murrah Building. Not va year ago but it was ugly. But the Secret Service says the death threats on the President are at an all time high. Last I heard was more than 30 a day. You know, I wasn’t even going to mention the irrelevance of Timothy McVeigh for fear of it being called a straw-man argument, but someone clearly called my bluff, so I’ll do it now. Timothy McVeigh is not representative of “militia crimes.” Timothy McVeigh was not a member of any militia at the time of his bombing, nor did he carry it out in the name of a militia. He _at one time_ was briefly associated with a militia; that does not make the Oklahoma City bombing a militia crime. That’s like saying that “the communists” killed JFK, because Lee Harvey Oswald was once a member of the communist party. The hellstorm of media coverage of militias after the bombing was typical ill-informed media panic-bullshit-journalism, designed to ooh and ahh people with the specter of a nonexistent boogeyman. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/27 "2010-01-12T03:19:24Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > Racism has always been a mainstream part of American politics. Segregationists were being elected to the US Senate [into the 21st century](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_thurmond). I don’t believe however, than white nationalism is a large factor in the anti-illegal immigration movement, Look into John Tanton and the so-called “Center for Immigration Studies.” Pretty much every organized anti-immigration group has fairly direct and traceable links to groups such as the KKK. “White nationalism,” if defined as the wish to legally and socially make those who are not heterosexual white Christians into second-class citizens, is already a mainstream element in American politics, and is a major reason why there is an “immigration issue” to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/28 "2010-01-12T03:34:12Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You know, I wasn’t even going to mention the irrelevance of Timothy McVeigh for fear of it being called a straw-man argument, but someone clearly called my bluff, so I’ll do it now. Timothy McVeigh is not representative of “militia crimes.” Timothy McVeigh was not a member of any militia at the time of his bombing, nor did he carry it out in the name of a militia. He _at one time_ was briefly associated with a militia; that does not make the Oklahoma City bombing a militia crime. It does, however, make it a White Nationalist crime. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/29 "2010-01-12T13:07:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > Your own post is not a cite. > > The excerpt from Christopher Hitchens’ book **is,** however. No, it’s not - it’s just an opinion piece from someone else who wants to smear people who dislike having people illegally in the country. There has been no hard evidence presented of any significant rise in white nationalism. This is a manufactured threat - a scare piece. Your Democracy Now! piece is simply channeling Glenn Beck, only from the left. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/30 "2010-01-12T14:26:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s not - it’s just an opinion piece from someone else who wants to smear people who dislike having people illegally in the country. There has been no hard evidence presented of any significant rise in white nationalism. It’s not a cite for that; it’s a cite for the fact that some important movers in the anti-immigration movement, such as John Tanton, have been racists and pretty clearly motivated by their racism. Also for the fact, incidentally, that when that came out, some others in the movement seemed rather surprised and quickly dissociated themselves from it. All that was back in the 1980s, but remains highly relevant to the thesis of Rowley and Soohen’s documentary. As for a recent rise in White Nationalism, or at least in the militia/“patriot” movement more broadly, see [here.](http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=392) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/31 "2010-01-12T14:50:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As for a recent rise in White Nationalism, or at least in the militia/“patriot” movement more broadly, see [here.](http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=392) I draw that distinction because the WN and militia movements, while there has always been considerable Boolean intersection between them, are not the same. E.g., [Bo Gritz,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Gritz) a formative influence on the militias, disavows racism. However, according to the report linked above, that is starting to change: > [@](#): > > They’re back. Almost a decade after largely disappearing from public view, right-wing militias, ideologically driven tax defiers and sovereign citizens are appearing in large numbers around the country. “Paper terrorism” — the use of property liens and citizens’ “courts” to harass enemies — is on the rise. And once-popular militia conspiracy theories are making the rounds again, this time accompanied by nativist theories about secret Mexican plans to “reconquer” the American Southwest. One law enforcement agency has found 50 new militia training groups — one of them made up of present and former police officers and soldiers. Authorities around the country are reporting a worrying uptick in Patriot activities and propaganda. “This is the most significant growth we’ve seen in 10 to 12 years,” says one. “All it’s lacking is a spark. I think it’s only a matter of time before you see threats and violence.” > > A key difference this time is that the federal government — the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy — is headed by a black man. **That, coupled with high levels of non-white immigration and a decline in the percentage of whites overall in America, has helped to racialize the Patriot movement, which in the past was not primarily motivated by race hate.** One result has been a remarkable rash of domestic terror incidents since the presidential campaign, most of them related to anger over the election of Barack Obama. At the same time, ostensibly mainstream politicians and media pundits have helped to spread Patriot and related propaganda, from conspiracy theories about a secret network of U.S. concentration camps to wholly unsubstantiated claims about the president’s country of birth. > > \ > > It’s not 1996 all over again, or 1997 or 1998. Although there has been a remarkable rash of domestic terrorist incidents since Obama’s election in November, it has not reached the level of criminal violence, attempted terrorist attacks and white-hot language that marked the militia movement at its peak. But militia training events, huge numbers of which are now viewable on YouTube videos, are spreading. One federal agency estimates that 50 new militia training groups have sprung up in less than two years. Sales of guns and ammunition have skyrocketed amid fears of new gun control laws, much as they did in the 1990s. > > The situation has many authorities worried. Militiamen, white supremacists, anti-Semites, nativists, tax protesters and a range of other activists of the radical right are cross-pollinating and may even be coalescing. In the words of a February report from law enforcement officials in Missouri, a variety of factors have combined recently to create “a lush environment for militia activity.” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/32 "2010-01-12T15:23:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t expect any RaHoWa, of course. But, there are some relevant issues for debate: > > (1) How much will this approach resonate with white Americans not previously openly committed to a WN worldview? > > (2) Conversely, how much will it discredit the immigration-restriction movement? > > (2)(a) How much **should** it discredit the immigration-restriction movement? > > (3) Related: If you believe in immigration restriction for non-racist reasons – e.g., to protect the wages of working-class Americans from immigrant competition; or to protect America’s environment from overpopulation pressure – how should you respond to these racists? Welcome them as strange bedfellows, or shout “Get off my side!”? Just so I’m clear, you’re opposed to all immigration restrictions? If memory serves, that was the situation prior to the 20th century, but I’ve heard relatively few people arguing for open borders these days. Most proponents of immigration reform remain immigration-restrictionists of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/33 "2010-01-12T15:38:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As for a recent rise in White Nationalism, or at least in the militia/“patriot” movement more broadly, see [here.](http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=392) Again, no hard figures, no real data. Scare-mongering, IOW. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/34 "2010-01-12T15:42:00Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Just so I’m clear, you’re opposed to all immigration restrictions? No. I find the economic arguments persuasive. With America’s deindustrialization-by-outsourcing and the decline of labor unions over the past several decades, working Americans have enough trouble finding good-paying jobs, without being undercut by cheap/desperate immigrant labor. I would, however, support some sort of amnesty and citizenship-tracking for (most of) those already here illegally; their illegal status just complicates things (e.g., makes them reluctant to cooperate with authorities even when necessary, and makes it easier for employers to get away with paying them illegally low wages and treating them any old how), while deporting them _en masse_ obviously is not a practical option. But I would definitely oppose any “guest worker” program; that’s just a way of letting the corporations have their cake and eat it. That’s what makes this debate so interesting: Some Americans oppose immigration (legal and illegal) on racial/cultural grounds, some on socioeconomic grounds, some on environmental grounds; and the different groups have to decide whether and how to work with others whose fundamental views they find abhorrent. (I am not convinced, BTW, that significant numbers **sincerely** oppose **illegal** immigration on law-and-order grounds; generally that’s code for some other concern.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/35 "2010-01-12T15:51:03Z")
This particular “rise on the right” is a little different than the one we saw under Clinton. Supposedly mainstream Republicans are echoing some of their talking points, such as the Birther rubbish. I still don’t think it’s a big deal, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/36 "2010-01-12T23:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Pretty much every organized anti-immigration group has fairly direct and traceable links to groups such as the KKK. Right and every pro-immigration group is funded by Jewish groups or promoted by Jewish owned media (ie. Kevin MacDonald’s argument) to reduce the prospect of discrimination. > [@](#): > > A congruent opinion is expressed by prominent Jewish social scientist and political activist Earl Raab who remarks very positively on the success of American immigration policy in altering the ethnic composition of the United States since 1965. > > Raab notes that the Jewish community has taken a leadership role in changing the Northwestern European bias of American immigration policy (1993a, p. 17), and he has also maintained that one factor inhibiting anti-Semitism in the contemporary United States is that “(a)n increasing ethnic heterogeneity, as a result of immigration, has made it even more > difficult for a political party or mass movement of bigotry to develop” (1995, p. 91). [http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/ABERNET3.PDF](http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/ABERNET3.PDF) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/37 "2010-01-12T23:51:38Z")
Although Steven Steinlight has argued that jews too should now oppose immigration: > [@](#): > > Apart from the loss of political power that will inevitably result over time from the sweeping demographic reconfiguration of the American social landscape, undoubtedly the greatest immediate threat to the well being of the American Jewish community and its interests stems from large-scale immigration from the Muslim world. The events of September 11 that have forever altered the nature of ordinary life in America, and have shattered the happy illusion of American invulnerability, make the current immigration policy supported by many Jewish organizations appear not merely as the height of irresponsibility, but as irrationally, almost criminally self-destructive. > > The special problem of large-scale Muslim immigration to the United States derives primarily from the worldwide ascent of Islamism (often referred to as “fundamentalism” and increasingly “Jihadism”), a totalitarian political ideology with strong theocratic and fascistic elements that is proving enormously compelling to millions of Muslims across the globe. [http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html](http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/38 "2010-01-12T23:55:48Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Right and every pro-immigration group is funded by Jewish groups or promoted by Jewish owned media (ie. Kevin MacDonald’s argument) to reduce the prospect of discrimination. > > [http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/ABERNET3.PDF](http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/ABERNET3.PDF) What is your point? An association with the KKK is a mark against the anti-immigration movement; an association with Jews is not a mark against the pro-immigration movement. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/39 "2010-01-12T23:56:29Z")
I do know that there’s a hell of a lot of anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by Muslims in Europe. I think that most of the vandalism of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries in places like Germany and France is done by Arab and African immigrants. Jews in Europe definitely seem threatened by Muslim immigration but I don’t know about America; I don’t hear much about that kind of stuff happening here and all of the Muslims I’ve known have been pretty decent people, but they’ve also been mostly educated, upper class folk. The immigrants to Europe are probably of the poor, uneducated and irate variety, not the school-attending, doctor-becoming kind. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/40 "2010-01-13T00:04:06Z")
**BrainGlutton** , do you understand the difference between illegal-immigration and immigration? You seem to conflate the two an awful lot, both in your OP and in your ensueing ‘cites’ :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554.md?page=3)