# Can "White Nationalists" use the immigration issue to reach the mainstream? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554 "2010-01-11T20:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/41 "2010-01-13T00:06:57Z")
In one breath the OP says that it is possible to advocate reduced immigration without being a racist, but in the next twenty he wonders how it will work politically what with all those David Dukes out there. It boils down to a rather transparent attempt at guilt by association. The Communist Party wants government health care. Will health care be the issue that finally takes American Communism from smelly college-town bookshops to the marble halls of power? When the Democrats and Communists get together to hammer out the details, who will get to give the opening address? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/42 "2010-01-13T01:26:44Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > In one breath the OP says that it is possible to advocate reduced immigration without being a racist, but in the next twenty he wonders how it will work politically what with all those David Dukes out there. It boils down to a rather transparent attempt at guilt by association. > > The Communist Party wants government health care. Will health care be the issue that finally takes American Communism from smelly college-town bookshops to the marble halls of power? When the Democrats and Communists get together to hammer out the details, who will get to give the opening address? I suppose the difference is that government health care isn’t inherently Communist (though, just based on what words mean, it is socialist, however much some people want to perceive that neutral semantic fact as a smear). Believing that one’s right to live, work, travel unmolested, and be protected by the due process of law in the United States is dependent on whether or not one was born on the Mexican side of a line on a map does strike me as believing that Mexicans are inherently a different class of person deserving of fewer rights, which we have a word for. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/43 "2010-01-13T02:31:52Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I suppose the difference is that government health care isn’t inherently Communist (though, just based on what words mean, it is socialist, however much some people want to perceive that neutral semantic fact as a smear). Believing that one’s right to live, work, travel unmolested, and be protected by the due process of law in the United States is dependent on whether or not one was born on the Mexican side of a line on a map does strike me as believing that Mexicans are inherently a different class of person deserving of fewer rights, which we have a word for. So, what percentage of the population of the United States do you think should be Mexican? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/44 "2010-01-13T04:12:12Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > **BrainGlutton** , do you understand the difference between illegal-immigration and immigration? You seem to conflate the two an awful lot, both in your OP and in your ensueing ‘cites’ :rolleyes: I understand that there **isn’t** much difference – some, but not much – relevant to any of the policy considerations relevant to immigration opposition (see post #34). I understand also (and so do you) that the anti-immigration movement makes much less distinction between the two than it pretends to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/45 "2010-01-13T04:28:35Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I suppose the difference is that government health care isn’t inherently Communist (though, just based on what words mean, it is socialist, however much some people want to perceive that neutral semantic fact as a smear). Believing that one’s right to live, work, travel unmolested, and be protected by the due process of law in the United States is dependent on whether or not one was born on the Mexican side of a line on a map does strike me as believing that Mexicans are inherently a different class of person deserving of fewer rights, which we have a word for. Another difference is that the Communists are not trying to piggyback Communism on health-care reform, while the White Nationalists are making a conscious and vigorous effort to piggyback White Nationalism on the anti-immigration movement. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/46 "2010-01-13T05:28:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I understand that there **isn’t** much difference – some, but not much – relevant to any of the policy considerations relevant to immigration opposition (see post #34). I understand also (and so do you) that the anti-immigration movement makes much less distinction between the two than it pretends to. I don’t think you’re right. There is a large segment of the population that objects to illegal immigration because it is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/47 "2010-01-13T06:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > What is your point? An association with the KKK is a mark against the anti-immigration movement; an association with Jews is not a mark against the pro-immigration movement. My point was it seems conspiratorial & overblown. In any case, guilt by association is a terrible argument. Environmental groups have also been associated with anti-immigration - and for good reason. Enlarging the US population will have a devastating impact on the environment & the ‘carbon footprint’. The Sierra Club is an example, until they were influenced by David Gelbaum’s money to shut up. The same disgusting guilt by association smear tactics that you’re employing were used there: > [@](#): > > In 1989 the Sierra Club board adopted this policy position: “Immigration to the United States should be no greater than that which will permit achievement of population stabilization in the United States.”18 The board sought to avoid offending ethnic sensibilities with the further declaration: “The Sierra Club will lend its voice to the congressional debate on legal immigration issues when appropriate, and then only on the issue of the number of immigrants — not where they come from or their category, since it is the fact of increasing numbers that affects population growth and ultimately, the quality of the environment.”19… > > Sierra Club leaders, determined to thwart the advocates of reduced immigration, launched a smear campaign featuring accusations of guilt by association. As the Washington Post reported, “club leaders charged in a statement mailed to members that the proposal’s supporters included extremists acting from racial prejudice.” They linked former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke to the effort. Carl Pope, the club’s executive director, told the Washington Post that if the organization favored reduced immigration, “we would be perceived as assisting people whose motivations are racist.”23 > > Gaylord Nelson, a staunch liberal and civil rights advocate, was furious at the smear tactics. “People have been silenced because they are scared to death of being charged with being a racist,” he said. “But racism has nothing to do with it. It’s a question of numbers.”24 > > Money may also be an inducement to inaction. As an article published in the Tucson Weekly under the headline “Trashing Arizona,” put it, environmental groups “should be hollering from tallest buildings about border trash,” but they have muzzled themselves because “making too much noise might turn off the open-borders liberals they rely on for donations.”30 > > The Los Angeles Times in 2004 described the Sierra Club’s financial stake in keeping silent on immigration. The paper disclosed Carl Pope’s close ties to a California philanthropist who linked his generosity to his own open-border philosophy. David Gelbaum, whose donation of $101.5 million “dwarfed all previous individual contributions to the club” according to the Times, denied that he had manipulated the board’s position on immigration policy but acknowledged that he had made Pope aware of his preference for an expansive immigration policy. > > Gelbaum traced those beliefs to his grandfather Abraham, an immigrant who had fled the persecution of Jews in Ukraine. And so, as he said to the Times, “I did tell Carl Pope in 1994 or 1995 that if they ever came out anti-immigration, they would never get a dollar from me.”31 Gelbaum’s respect for his grandfather had set him against those who tried to stir concern for the world being shaped for his grandchildren. [http://www.cis.org/sierraclub](http://www.cis.org/sierraclub) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/48 "2010-01-13T13:36:36Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Believing that one’s right to live, work, travel unmolested, and be protected by the due process of law in the United States is dependent on whether or not one was born on the Mexican side of a line on a map does strike me as believing that Mexicans are inherently a different class of person deserving of fewer rights, which we have a word for. That word would be “non-citizen”. Interesting use of the phrase “due process of law” in a discussion of **illegal** immigration, though. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/49 "2010-01-13T14:03:02Z")
Yeah, I don’t understand that post either. Illegal and nonresident aliens have never been subject to the same protections as citizens and resident aliens- just a lot of them. The Google ad I’m getting is for CafePress “racism stickers”. “Support racism with tons of unique stickers, buttons and magnets.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/50 "2010-01-13T15:40:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think you’re right. There is a large segment of the population that objects to illegal immigration because it is illegal. I don’t think you’re right. There is a large segment that **says** that; but if you proposed liberalizing the immigration laws to admit lawfully the same numbers (not necessarily the same persons, as in an amnesty) that now are here unlawfully, most of those same people would have just exactly as big a problem with that. See also post #11. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/51 "2010-01-13T16:09:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See also post #11. That’s funny. Your post isn’t a cite, especially when the linked post is prefixed with ‘I think’. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/52 "2010-01-13T16:14:58Z")
“My post is my cite” rides again. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/53 "2010-01-13T16:29:49Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > That’s funny. Your post isn’t a cite, especially when the linked post is prefixed with ‘I think’. Referring to one’s own earlier post in the same thread is not intended nor proffered as a cite; it is simply a way to avoid repeating oneself. As you know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/54 "2010-01-13T23:11:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again, no hard figures, no real data. Scare-mongering, IOW. > > Regards, > Shodan How exactly would you quantify this sort of thing? Or, for that matter, gather reliable data with which to quantify it? Seems to me it would be even more difficult than gathering reliable data on how many Americans are homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/55 "2010-01-14T00:29:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think you’re right. There is a large segment that **says** that; but if you proposed liberalizing the immigration laws to admit lawfully the same numbers (not necessarily the same persons, as in an amnesty) that now are here unlawfully, most of those same people would have just exactly as big a problem with that. See also post #11. Exactly. If their problem was really with people breaking the law, then they would see liberalizing the law as a solution, and they wouldn’t be the same people virulently defending the Bush administration’s violation of laws against torture and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/56 "2010-01-14T00:41:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Referring to one’s own earlier post in the same thread is not intended nor proffered as a cite; it is simply a way to avoid repeating oneself. > > As you know. Right, but all you did in post 11 is give an unsupported opinion. As you know. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/57 "2010-01-14T01:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > (3) Related: If you believe in immigration restriction for non-racist reasons BrainGlutton, Do you consider Israel’s reasons here to be racist? > [@](#): > > Jerusalem- Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday ordered to construct a fence at a cost of $1.5 billion along two segments of Israel’s border with Egypt, in an attempt to stem the infiltration of migrant workers as well as of terrorist elements into Israel. > “I took the decision to close Israel’s southern border to infiltrators and terrorists. This is a strategic decision to secure Israel’s Jewish and democratic character,” Netanyahu said in a statement. > Thousands of African and other migrants have come to Israel through its porous border with Egypt over the last few years > Netanyahu said Israel would “remain open to refugees” from conflict zones but added, “we cannot let tens of thousands of illegal workers infiltrate into Israel through the southern border and inundate our country with illegal aliens.” > **[Jerusalem - Israel to Build $1.5b Fence Along Egypt Border - VINnews](https://vinnews.com/2010/01/10/jerusalem-israel-to-build-1-5b-fence-along-egypt-border/)** > > Jerusalem- Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday ordered to construct a fence at a cost of $1.5 billion along two segments of Israel’s border with Egypt, in an attempt to stem the infiltration of migrant workers as well as of terrorist elements... What about Tibet not wanting Chinese to overwhelm them? Note the Dalai Lama’s comments emphasising that Han Chinese and Tibetans are racially distinct. Do you consider he’s a racist? [http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=DsxcvwOq\_-0C&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Dalai+Lama+archeology+shows+distinct+race&source=bl&ots=3PTu0-Trx5&sig=3ljfckm51Z7D7c6uP8Trw1l3L-g&hl=en&ei=KnJOS5WxMpGgkQX0hpWsDQ&sa=X&oi=book\_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false](http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=DsxcvwOq_-0C&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Dalai+Lama+archeology+shows+distinct+race&source=bl&ots=3PTu0-Trx5&sig=3ljfckm51Z7D7c6uP8Trw1l3L-g&hl=en&ei=KnJOS5WxMpGgkQX0hpWsDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/58 "2010-01-14T02:22:30Z")
BTW, you can vew the _White Power USA_ video [here](http://www.bignoisefilms.com/videowire/106/106) (23 min). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/59 "2010-01-14T03:13:23Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > they wouldn’t be the same people virulently defending the Bush administration’s violation of laws against torture and so forth. The who that do the what now? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554/60 "2010-01-14T03:18:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (3) Related: If you believe in immigration restriction for non-racist reasons – e.g., to protect the wages of working-class Americans from immigrant competition; or to protect America’s environment from overpopulation pressure – how should you respond to these racists? Welcome them as strange bedfellows, or shout “Get off my side!”? Neither, completely ignore them. Calling attention to them at all is both a distraction and a free airing of their point of view. Which is not to say that their racists position should not be refuted if offered, but it’s rare to see them take an openly racist anti-immigration stance in a way that encourages interaction without increase their exposure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-white-nationalists-use-the-immigration-issue-to-reach-the-mainstream/524554.md?page=4)