# Can women truly become lesbian by choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831 "2006-01-13T15:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/1 "2006-01-13T15:50:56Z")
This is in IMHO because in the end I think we’ll only have opinions. But you hear about this all the time: Woman gets raped, begins to hate men. Decides she hates the entire male species, actually and only loves women. OR Woman becomes lesbian as part of an extremist feminist philosophy. The example given to me was Julie Birchill. OR Woman becomes lesbian after just generally unsavory experiences with men. See, I can never see a man becoming gay because women have treated him badly. Joking about it, maybe, or preferring the company of his male friends, but actually sleeping with them? Seems kind of out of the range os possibility. Yet it seems to happen with women. Is this a real thing, and if so, is it merely because the stigma against lesbianism is so much lower than the stigma against homosexuality? I got some of my examples and words in an e-mail from another Doper. If he wishes to identify himself, he can, but I neither want to drag him in nor take credit for his words. ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/2 "2006-01-13T15:55:02Z")
Women certainly seem to be a lot less squeamish about it. I have heterosexual woman friends who enjoy making out and grinding with each other in clubs, simply for the attention. But isn’t the current scientific opinion that the brain is sexed in the womb? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/3 "2006-01-13T15:58:40Z")
What about LUGs (Lesbians Until Graduation)? Are these women just "experimenting, bisexual by nature, unable to pick a team, or what? Not that I care, because everyone’s sexuality is their own business, but I’ve wondered. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/4 "2006-01-13T16:01:44Z")
I am starting to think we are way too strict on our sexuality, particularly seeing Cecli’s column today. Let me see if I can link to it: [Ancient Greeks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060113.html) In it, one of the things he says is: > [@](#): > > The real handicap, though, is that little of what we think we know about sexuality now prepares us to understand what the Greeks thought about it then. Today we tend to regard sexual orientation as a binary proposition–most people are attracted to either men or women; relatively few are consistently attracted to both. What’s more, we think of sexual identity as innate and more or less immutable. It may take a while (usually in adolescence) to figure out if you’re gay or straight, but once you do, you stay that way for life. > None of this could be confidently said of the Greeks. A common practice in ancient times, at least among those men rich enough to have the time for such things, was to chase boys until you were 30 or so, then settle down with a woman and have kids. Why would every human be the same, I wonder? Why would we all be irrevocably gay or straight or bi? I still think it’s a sliding scale. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/5 "2006-01-13T16:05:57Z")
All of your examples in the OP can be read the opposite way: the woman was already gay and didn’t know it because she hadn’t opened herself up to the possibility. Once she gave up on the idea of men, or adopted a pro-woman philosophy, or had some unsavory experiences with men, or (following up on Silenus’s suggestion) began having scantily-clad pillow fights in the dorms, they came to realize their true identity. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/6 "2006-01-13T16:13:05Z")
Not to mention there are instances where a woman woild do as you describe, but then later realize she was trying to choose to be lesbian because of a bad experience, but really is heterosexual, or maybe bisexual. I know it happened to a friend of mine. He dated a girl, and when they broke up, she said she hated men and therefore must be a lesbian (yes, she was a teenager at the time, which seems to make this scenario more likely.) After dating a woman or two, she realized she actualy didn’t hate men…just my friend. At which point she realized she also didn’t really like women (well, not in that way) and she was forcing herself to date them. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/7 "2006-01-13T16:50:56Z")
“The number and duration of things a sexually competent woman will do out of spite is unlimited.” Wordy isn’t it. I’m juggling for a simpler form. Work with me here … ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/8 "2006-01-13T17:16:51Z")
I believe that true hetero- or homosexuality is very rare, as to be almost nonexistent. Even if you strongly slant one way or the other, most people still have the seed of attraction for the “non-preferred” sex/gender. This belief is borne out by the Kinsey study and many other sex studies. So it seems plausible that once you eliminate males as a suitable partner, your latent gay side will come out. It’s not so much a choice as a deliberate narrowing of the field of attraction. I don’t think any truly heterosexual woman (and again, they’re rare) would switch teams even after being raped or abused. She’d swear off sex altogether before that happened. I think the same thing can also happen to men, but doesn’t because of social taboos. Kinsey and others showed that bisexuality with strong heterosexual leanings (the most common orientation) is just as common among males as females. Also, males don’t have a trigger like rape that would make them swear off women. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/9 "2006-01-13T17:29:16Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > I believe that true hetero- or homosexuality is very rare, as to be almost nonexistent. Even if you strongly slant one way or the other, most people still have the seed of attraction for the “non-preferred” sex/gender. This belief is borne out by the Kinsey study and many other sex studies. > … First I’ve heard of it. Contrary to all my experience and observation too, so I humbly offer an opinion to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/10 "2006-01-13T17:32:09Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > “The number and duration of things a sexually competent woman will do out of spite is unlimited.” > > Wordy isn’t it. I’m juggling for a simpler form. Work with me here … It’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/11 "2006-01-13T17:36:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind. “Donna e mobile”? Nah, needs a tune to it. I’m thinking something with a bit of hellfire and fury. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/12 "2006-01-13T17:37:29Z")
In my experience, women are more likely to fall somewhere in the “bi” end of the spectrum. While many men I know are “very straight” (not homophobic, just very straight), few women I know are the same. Therefore, an event can make her change gender preference more easily. Now, I do know a woman with a sad past with men who just basically became asexual - she isn’t attracted to women at all, so that wasn’t an option for her. Whether this is because our society is more open to the idea of lesbians or bisexuality in women than in men, or because women are more likely to be hard wired this way is, I believe, at this time completely unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/13 "2006-01-13T17:42:51Z")
_We have secretly switched_ **davenportavenger** ’s \*sex partner with a person \* _of the opposite gender. Let’s see if he notices_. I have never felt any attraction for any member of my gender that I’ve ever met or seen. On the other hand, I have felt quite a bit for many, many (oh so many) women. I too must disagree. **silenius** - LUGs! I’m still laughing! ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/14 "2006-01-13T17:47:12Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > “Donna e mobile”? > > Nah, needs a tune to it. I’m thinking something with a bit of hellfire and fury. “He’ll Have No Furry Liking a Woman Scorned” ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/15 "2006-01-13T17:54:32Z")
> [@Nic2004](#): > > _We have secretly switched_ **davenportavenger** ’s \*sex partner with a person \* _of the opposite gender. Let’s see if he notices_. Actually, I’m a girl. [Link to the Kinsey findings on bisexuality.](http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/research/ak-data.html#bisexuality) According to this, 46% of males and 14% of females had more than incidental homosexual experiences in their history or otherwise “reacted” to members of the same gender. While this isn’t a majority, most current researchers have said that Kinsey’s study was too conservative, and that those numbers should be way higher, especially since he asked questions about experience more than attraction, and there are many people who have attraction for the same sex but do not act on their urges. I agree that exclusive heterosexuality is more common than exclusive homosexuality, but I still think both groups are dwarfed by bisexuals. Kinsey supports these findings for men. The term I’ve always heard for LUGs is “four year queer.” ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/16 "2006-01-13T17:55:33Z")
Look at it this way: Legions of homosexuals have faked heterosexuality, even to the point of marriage and having multiple children. Many of them would not identify themselves as homosexual, even to themselves. They just would be unfulfilled and unhappy in their heterosexual relationships. If a gay person can fake the opposite orientation if they have a strong enough social or personal reason to do so, so could a heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/17 "2006-01-13T18:37:03Z")
I’ve known a couple lesbians who were sexually abused as children, but I’ve known many more heterosexual women who were sexually abused as children. In the case of my lesbian friends who were abused, I wouldn’t be surprised if repeated childhood sexual abuse was a contributing factor in making them uninterested in sex with men, but I doubt it was the whole story. I’m extremely doubtful that a single instance of abuse or rape could reverse a person’s sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/18 "2006-01-13T18:37:43Z")
I believe it’s innate, not the result of ideology or rape. I admit I’ve wondered if being repeatedly raped by two guys when I was 13 turned me against men and resulted in my becoming lesbian. Then I think it over and realize I was attracted to women even before that. So no, while rape can turn a woman into a man-hater, that is not the same as being lesbian. And I wish we could get away from this stereotype of lesbians being “man haters.” I hate it when any group is stigmatized. We are all individuals. Speaking of feminism, which is big among lesbians, in my understanding it encourages each individual woman to find fulfillment any way she chooses, not to adhere to some rigid ideology of which kinds of people are acceptable. Sheesh, we’re all just human beings. Recently a reporter asked Gloria Steinem what’s her advice for young women today. She said to do “whatever they fucking well please,” and laughed. That’s my idea of feminism! ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/19 "2006-01-13T18:45:18Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Actually, I’m a girl. My apologies. I couldn’t be sure and I meant no insult, really. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831/20 "2006-01-13T18:51:57Z")
> [@Nic2004](#): > > My apologies. I couldn’t be sure and I meant no insult, really. None taken. (insert “smile” emoticon here) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-women-truly-become-lesbian-by-choice/339831.md?page=2)