# Can you be a Christian and not believe in His resurrection? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538 "2003-04-18T13:40:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/41 "2003-04-21T04:27:13Z")
**Cholo** , see my link above. I’d be really interested in seeing how you counter the arguments I mention there (and those of others). Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![dil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f04885/32.png) [@dil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dil)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/42 "2003-04-21T14:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **The substitutionary atonement, without some fast footwork, makes God the Father out to be a monster who _knows_ that all the humans he created will be sinful, yet creates them in a world where they have no choice but to be sinful and therefore doomed to Hell – and then kills His own Son as a way of buying Himself and His justice off.** I don’t think this makes God a monster. God doesn’t put us in a position where we must sin. He gives us complete freedom of choice. We choose to do things that are contrary to God’s plan, therefore we sin. \*\* > [@](#): > > And I will suggest that what Paul has to say in I Corinthians 15 makes the Resurrection something very much more than “just the proof that Jesus was successful” – in rising to new and richer life, He was the firstfruits of the new and richer life promised _us_. If you’re focused on the Crucifixion side of the Atonment to the extent that the Resurrection side means nothing more than a proof of the meaning of what happened two days before. then you’re not looking at the big picture of what God did.\*\* I agree with you 100%, I was just trying to be as succinct as possible. I shouldn’t have said “just the proof”, certainly it is more than that. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. “You can call yourself whatever you wish, but then your definition of “Christian” differs from mine. I gave you my definition above. This doesn’t prevent you from misusing the word.” > > I don’t recall giving my consent to any circular letter authorizing you to define who is and who is not a Christian. On the other hand, St. Paul’s opinions carry a bit more weight: “If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Savior and Lord, you will be saved.” Not one word about believing in transubstantiation, the Nephites, the meaning of icons, the apostolic succession, the doctrine of eternal progression, the Gifts of the Spirit, the doctrine of sanctification, _sola Scriptura_, _sola fidei_, double predestination, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or any other other accretions we’ve tacked on it. Just that simple statement in Scripture: believe with heart, confess with mouth, Jesus is Savior and Lord, you’re saved. Period.\*\* I didn’t mean to imply that I had the authority to define what is a Christian for ALL people. I was just saying that TO ME this is what it means and if someone else claims they are a Christian but they don’t believe Jesus was the son of God, then TO ME they are misusing the word. Also, I think Paul and James would have had a heated debate about what it takes to be a Christian. James would have said that even the demons meet the qualifications Paul has given to be a Christian, and yet certainly they are not saved. What is missing here is that you have to make Jesus the Lord of your life, it is not JUST believing in him. Paul probably thought this was obvious and that’s why he didn’t explicitly include it in this statement, although he did say “confess that Jesus is Saviour and **Lord** ”, and I think we can safely extrapolate that Paul intended us to speak in **truth** when we confess Jesus as **Lord** so we get to the same end result. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/43 "2003-04-21T14:43:04Z")
Yes, **dil** , as you alluded to, “the devils also believe, and tremble”, yet they arent’s saved. One can believe it’s all true without taking any action upon it. There’s a difference between mental assent and heart belief. Is a person saved just because they say, “ok I believe God exists and Jesus came and died on the cross, etc etc.” I have to say I don’t think so. It’s the heart belief in Christ that saves, not just the mental assent that He did the things He did. Remember there are those who’ll say “Lord Lord didn’t we do this and that for you?” and He’s going to say "Depart from me, **I never knew you."** ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/44 "2003-04-21T15:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Remember there are those who’ll say “Lord Lord didn’t we do this and that for you?” and He’s going to say “Depart from me, I never knew you.” NO!!! It is those who say, “My Lord, we never saw you hungry, or sad, or alone!” And he will say, “Whatever you didn’t do for the least of them, you didn’t do for me. Now get out of here.” It most certainly does NOT say what you claim it does! ---
**Author:** ![Kallisti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@Kallisti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallisti)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/45 "2003-04-21T16:17:38Z")
\>Gnostic Christianity is The heresy of heresies… or at best a really “far out” interpretation trip that is fundamentally Gnostic and only incidentally Christian. But that would just be a majority consensus of theologians, not a nailing down of objective universal truth.\< I’m sure JC would agree that whatever the majority believe must be true.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/46 "2003-04-21T16:37:26Z")
**His** and **Guin** , actually you are looking at different sides of the same concept, and “describing the elephant as like a rope or like a tree.” Actually, at rock bottom, it’s **God’s grace** that saves us, not anything that we can do, even believe. I know the passage that **His** is alluding to, and the point to it is that people are trying to buy their way into heaven by good deeds (Pharisee style legalism, not out of the goodness of their heart). On the other foot, **Guin** ’s point, which **His** has agreed to in other debates, is that, as James says, a true commitment in faith is going to result in the doing of God’s will by the person so committed – resulting in “the deeds of the sheep.” I personally don’t think it’s anywhere near as complex as it seems – God loves each of us. Hence if a given man, let’s call him **gopanda** to avoid identifying any particular person, feels driven away from Christ by the hateful deeds of people claiming to be Christians, yet tries to follow the teachings of Christ in his own life as he understands God’s truth to be, God will be merciful to **gopanda**. On the other hand, applying the principle of the parable that **Guin** quoted to the situation, those who persecuted him using Scripture as their justification may be very surprised to find themselves “among the goats.” (And, **His** , that was the point to the question **Acquiesce** raised over in the Pizza Parlor Kitchen – please do not hear any of that is accusation against any one individual; if the shoes one wears while reading that pinch anyone’s feet, I’m not intentionally targeting them, though God may be doing so.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Ruok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/47 "2003-04-21T16:50:07Z")
Guinastasia, I believe you are thinking of Mt 25:31-46. His4ever is quoting from Mt 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/48 "2003-04-21T17:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ruok \* > \*\*Guinastasia, I believe you are thinking of Mt 25:31-46. > > His4ever is quoting from Mt 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ \*\* Yes, thanks, **Ruok.** **Poly** , I understand what you’re saying I think and you’re right the Scripture can be used in a wrong way. Of course, we’re probably not all going to agree on which way is right either. You could say somone is using a Scripture to hurt someone when in reality God is trying to reach them about something in their life. But it can happen the way you say, too. It can be abused. I could go on but that’s not prudent for now. I see where you’re coming from though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/49 "2003-04-21T19:50:05Z")
Ah, my mistake. Sorry, **His**. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/50 "2003-04-21T20:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Can you be a Christian and not believe in His resurrection? Emphatically, yes. Would a vast majority of Christians consider those who do not believe in His recurrection, and all that it entails, a Christian in an difinitive term? Most likely not. And while anyone can label themselves anything they wish, to ascribe their claims as an accpetance by others is fallicious and arrogant. Can a man claim to be homosexual because he had sexual relations with a male when he was a boy, but today finds such acts repugnant? Where is the definition and listed criteria? I do not consider Gnostics Christians in even the most liberal use of the word. Apparantly they would disagree. So yes they can, but will they be called that is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Tiggis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Tiggis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiggis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/51 "2003-04-21T21:18:01Z")
Kallisti - "I am a Gnostic Christian " debunked by Saint John in 1st John, get another religion! The problem is on of semantics. I can state that I am an egg and I can believe this to my very death, but if I do not conform to the practical description of an egg I believe in vain. The word Christian we are told was first coined in Antioch, Since they were the first christians one could argue that they are the standard by which the christian definition can be formed. They most certainly did believe in a bodily resurection of christ. But as word meanings change over time, one could argue that the definition has changed to allow a more diverse definition of the term meaning anyone who basically thinks Jesus was a good guy… and the bible is a good book… ---
**Author:** ![Kallisti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@Kallisti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallisti)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/52 "2003-04-21T21:53:00Z")
\>Kallisti - "I am a Gnostic Christian " debunked by Saint John in 1st John, get another religion!\< Tiggis, How about you go fuck yourself. If you want to attack my religion, make a thread for it; otherwise just kiss my Gnostic Christian ass. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/53 "2003-04-21T21:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Ah, my mistake. Sorry, **His**. \*\* 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rockford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@Rockford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rockford)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/54 "2003-04-22T00:21:58Z")
Hey Kallisti, don’t let the door hit your troll ass on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/55 "2003-04-22T01:19:56Z")
Oh, my. Now, that’s VERY NOT Christian. Gnostic or not! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/56 "2003-04-22T01:50:55Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Earlier today, Coldfire told Kallisti: > [@](#): > > Next time you cross the line, you’re out. Well, that certainly didn’t take long, did it? Goodbye, Kallisti. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/57 "2003-04-22T01:52:17Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] Incidentally, Rockford, there was no need to make that comment. Next time, just report the message and let the moderators handle it, 'kay? * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/58 "2003-04-22T02:18:21Z")
**Tiggis** , “get another religion” was a bit snarkier than necessary, specially for a first-post – and you had good post except for that first line. Just a suggestion that when you have a good point you can just put it forward, no need to slam the other fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Tiggis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Tiggis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiggis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/59 "2003-04-22T14:37:41Z")
Sorry… I didnt mean to slap and feed the troll… I will do better. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538/60 "2003-04-23T02:43:12Z")
Cholo: do you have any basis, other than the Bible, for believing in any of the evidence that you cite? Any evidence that the disciples were persecuted for claiming to have personally witnessed Jesus’ resurrection, or that the Romans were really seriously concerned about Jesus, that they had soldiers guard the tomb or that they **didn’t** produce Jesus body? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-a-christian-and-not-believe-in-his-resurrection/169538.md?page=4)