# Can you be ticketed for inferred speeding? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 9, 2021, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196 "2021-10-09T04:23:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/41 "2021-10-10T14:06:06Z")
I got a camera ticket in Arizona. By law they had to actually serve you within 30 days. What usually happened was you would get a nasty threatening letter telling you to sign and give up your right to that 30 day notice RFN otherwise the state WILL send a scary sheriff’s deputy TO YOUR HOME and you WILL be served IN PERSON. I got the letter, refused to sign, never got served and later confirmed the ticket was wiped out of the system. BTW, I never heard of anyone that refused to give up their right that eventually got served. My roommate got one a few months later and I told him what to do, but he was scared of what would happen (read what I wrote as to what exactly would happen) and he just wrote the check. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/42 "2021-10-10T14:32:54Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I’ve heard rumors about jurisdictions that use lines on the highway separated by (say) one mile, and have airborn observers measure how long a driver takes to travel between them. If true, this would be similar to the OP. > > I always assumed this was what “speed limit enforced by aircraft” was referring to. Wouldn’t radar be unreliable from a plane or helicopter? It’s called VASCAR and it can be used in aircraft or a squad car, and it can be used in moving or stationary mode. > **[VASCAR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASCAR)** > > VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer And Recorder) is a type of device for calculating the speed of a moving vehicle. The first VASCAR device was created in 1966 by Arthur Marshall. It is used by police officers to enforce speed limits, and may be preferred where radar or lidar is illegal, such as some jurisdictions in Pennsylvania, or to prevent detection by those with radar detectors. > A VASCAR unit uses a stopwatch and a simple computer. An operator records the moments that a vehicle passes ... ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/43 "2021-10-10T16:05:32Z")
Hypothetically it would be trivial to determine if someone is speeding using automated toll transponders like EZ-Pass. EZ-Pass is so ubiquitous in the Northeast that it is used on non-toll roads to monitor travel times to post on informational signs. However, if they started using the toll transponders to issue citations, people would stop using them and the authorities would have to increase manned toll booths. Nobody wants that. Maybe when “toll by plate” is rolled out then issuing citations would be more feasible - there would be no “opt-out” as there is with the toll transponders. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/44 "2021-10-10T16:24:38Z")
On toll roads couldn’t you just call it a speeding fee (charged to a vehicle) instead of a speeding fine (charged to a person)? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/45 "2021-10-10T16:38:23Z")
I don’t think you can fight the math involved. It will prove that you were speeding. you might be able to demand proof it was your license plate on the car which is something easily duplicated and stuck on a car to fool a camera. But if you’re ticketed at destination then an officer can verify who the driver is with camera support of the time involved. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/46 "2021-10-10T17:51:51Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > couldn’t you just call it a speeding fee (charged to a vehicle) instead of a speeding fine Here _fines_ have gone away for these sorts of things. Now they are called _expiation fees_. Basically, pay this and it will go away. If you don’t pay by the due date, the fee escalates markedly, and the clock starts ticking for a summons and a court appearance. If you do end up in court, the courts can and usually will impose a fine. If you want to fight it in court, you simply don’t pay the expiation fee. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/47 "2021-10-11T21:48:07Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Fiona Onasanya was found guilty on 19 December 2018 of perverting the course of justice for lying to police to avoid being prosecuted for speeding. I was thinking of **Chris Huhne** , who was our local MP when I lived in the UK, and a high flyer in the Liberal Democrat party. He had collected a speeding ticket in 2003 and persuaded his wife to say she was driving (when she wasn’t even in the car at the time), to avoid a ban. Some time later, he had an affair with one of his aides, and left his wife. She promptly went to the papers with the story and evidence of her whereabouts at the time, they were both charged with perverting the course of justice, and served short jail sentences. Needless to say, his political career was destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/48 "2021-10-11T22:26:58Z")
I seem to remember my brother getting such a ticket on the Florida Turnpike in the 1980’s. I’m not buying that people would just stop and stay at rest stops to lower the average speed. What would be the point of speeding if it still took the same amount of time to get to your destination that it would have taken you if you just drove the speed limit? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/49 "2021-10-11T23:56:13Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > What would be the point of speeding if it still took the same amount of time to get to your destination that it would have taken you if you just drove the speed limit? The logic is the speeding makes up for the time you’re at the rest stops. If you’re taking a long trip, it’s better than stopping somewhere on a two-lane road where you’re lucky to average 40 miles per hour. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/50 "2021-10-12T00:02:36Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > What would be the point of speeding if it still took the same amount of time to get to your destination that it would have taken you if you just drove the speed limit? I’m pretty sure at least some people speed just because they like to drive fast – be the one passing people instead of the one being passed. The actual time taken to get places is immaterial. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/51 "2021-10-12T10:56:39Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I’m not buying that people would just stop and stay at rest stops to lower the average speed. What would be the point of speeding if it still took the same amount of time to get to your destination that it would have taken you if you just drove the speed limit? Say that, when driving fast, I’ve sometimes arrived not only ‘on time’, but ‘with time to spare’ — and that, when driving slow, I’ve sometimes been _late_. Would you then buy that I’d (a) drive fast enough to be ahead of schedule, and then (b) kill some time at a rest stop? ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/52 "2021-10-12T11:12:36Z")
We used to drive from Québec to Florida in the 1990s. On one of the thruways or turnpikes or parkways along the way, the attendant handed you a cardboard ticket when entering, which you’d give back at the exit toll booth. On the back there was a table showing the toll you’d have to pay at various exit points, based on how little time it would take you. It wasn’t a ticket, just a higher toll (maybe 20% higher). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/53 "2021-10-12T11:13:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > What would be the point of speeding if it still took the same amount of time to get to your destination that it would have taken you if you just drove the speed limit? Maybe they aren’t stopping at rest stops to lower the average speed. Maybe they are going to stop at rest stops no matter what and they are speeding to _raise_ the average speed. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/54 "2021-10-12T11:30:04Z")
Yep, it happened to me in Wisconsin a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/55 "2021-10-12T18:01:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The New York Thruway used to do that a very looooog time ago. It was a take a toll ticket when you enter and give it back and pay when you exit based on your entry to exit points. If your time was too short between them you might get a ticket, I believe by an officer at the toll plaza. I lived in New York and used to drive quite frequently on the New York State thruway going back to the 1960s, and I do not remember this ever being the case. You got a time stamped ticket all right, but the only reason was to measure your entrance and exit point. Having an average speed faster than the posted limit never caused a ticket, or any kind of surcharge in my experience, and I drove it during the 55 mph speed limit days. Possibly it may have happened in the 1950s or before, but I’d have to see evidence of that, because no one living there ever told me about it happening. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/56 "2021-10-12T23:57:03Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > I really don’t think this is a thing. What makes speeding an offence that requires direct observation versus all the other offences you might commit? Agreed. Speeding is like anything else. It can be proven based on circumstantial evidence like the timing between toll plazas. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The “crime” (it was 100% civil) in my city was owning the car that was speeding. Yeah. In states that do this, they get around the Fifth Amendment and proof beyond reasonable doubt by designating this as a civil infraction in which your vehicle was causing a nuisance on the public roadways, much like if your dog escaped and attacked someone or if your sewer line busted and flooded your neighbor’s house. Even though you personally didn’t do anything criminal, a chattel of yours (your car) was causing societal problems so you, the owner, will pay a civil penalty. I don’t like it, but it seems to have been upheld anywhere it has been challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/57 "2021-10-13T02:38:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > > [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > > > I really don’t think this is a thing. What makes speeding an offence that requires direct observation versus all the other offences you might commit? > > Agreed. Speeding is like anything else. It can be proven based on circumstantial evidence like the timing between toll plazas. > > > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > > > The “crime” (it was 100% civil) in my city was owning the car that was speeding. > > Yeah. In states that do this, they get around the Fifth Amendment and proof beyond reasonable doubt by designating this as a civil infraction in which your vehicle was causing a nuisance on the public roadways, much like if your dog escaped and attacked someone or if your sewer line busted and flooded your neighbor’s house. > > Even though you personally didn’t do anything criminal, a chattel of yours (your car) was causing societal problems so you, the owner, will pay a civil penalty. I don’t like it, but it seems to have been upheld anywhere it has been challenged. Yes that’s how it was in my state. We had red light cameras. The way they got around proving who was the driver was to make it a civil penalty. A monetary fine to the registered owner with no points. Thankfully we got rid of those. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/58 "2021-10-13T03:14:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Speeding is like anything else. It can be proven based on circumstantial evidence like the timing between toll plazas. True. But there isn’t just the element of needing to prove the crime occurred (which can be proven by the toll plaza tickets). There’s also the necessary element of proving that the defendant is the individual who committed the crime. The civil infraction route that others have mentioned seems to be a means to bypass this requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/59 "2021-10-13T08:22:12Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > but what was the point? You didn’t get there any sooner. It just feels so good to drive fast (and so lousy keeping within the limit), that reason doesn’t enter the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196/60 "2021-10-13T13:31:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Even though you personally didn’t do anything criminal, a chattel of yours (your car) was causing societal problems so you, the owner, will pay a civil penalty. I don’t like it, but it seems to have been upheld anywhere it has been challenged. And when taken to the extreme, the property is put on trial AKA civil asset forfeiture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-be-ticketed-for-inferred-speeding/952196.md?page=4)