# Can you break the country's law being outside that country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959 "2014-08-20T00:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qwertol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Qwertol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertol)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/1 "2014-08-20T00:44:14Z")
Is it possible to commit a crime in a country being outside that country? What about situation like this: something is legal in country A but illegal in country B, you do that something in country A. Can you be extradited to country B (assuming they have an extradition treaty)? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/2 "2014-08-20T00:52:52Z")
Yes, it is possible. For example, the United States provides for criminal penalties for Americans who engage in child sex tourism. However, the typical extradition treaty requires that the offense be illegal in both countries. If something is legal in country B, but illegal in A, there’s generally no basis for an individual in country B to be sent to country A. ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/3 "2014-08-20T00:54:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, it is possible. For example, the United States provides for criminal penalties for Americans who engage in child sex tourism. That’s the first thing I thought of, too. But is child sex tourism actually legal anywhere in the world, or is it just illegal but poorly-enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/4 "2014-08-20T00:57:00Z")
In 1989, the United States sent its armed forces to Panama to “extradite” its president [Manuel Noriega](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega) for violating US law while in Panama. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/5 "2014-08-20T01:01:13Z")
First thing I thought of was not paying (US income) tax while living abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/6 "2014-08-20T01:03:42Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > But is child sex tourism actually legal anywhere in the world, or is it just illegal but poorly-enforced? well, the USA laws on sex are much more puritanical than most countries. Especially their ones on ‘age of consent’. So sex that is legal in many countries would be called ‘sexual exploitation of a child’ in parts of the USA. Like Romeo & Juliet. Or Joseph & Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/7 "2014-08-20T01:11:30Z")
This is actually a quite complicated topic, and there are a few different legal questions bound up in it. Here’s a short summary: \*\*Do laws apply generally apply abroad? \*\* In the U.S., federal laws are generally interpreted as not applying outside the U.S. unless otherwise specified. A few laws do specify that they apply abroad. One big exception to this presumption is criminal laws that regulate acts that harm the U.S. government, such as killing a U.S. diplomat or defrauding the Treasury. They are presumed to apply globally even absent any clear expression of that intent. By contrast, states cannot generally apply their laws outside the country without federal approval since the federal government has the exclusive power over foreign affairs. \*\*When can Congress apply a law abroad? \*\* This question is not entirely settled. The law must be within the power of Congress to pass. In the case of child sex tourism, the courts have defended the power to extend the law abroad as a valid exercise of the foreign commerce clause. It is unclear whether Congress could regulate, say, international rape where no money is exchanged. And the law must also comply with due process, which may have some requirements for a nexus between the crime and the country where it is prosecuted. **When can someone who has violated a U.S. law abroad be charged in the U.S.?** This is a question of both the jurisdiction of the U.S. court and extradition, both of which vary by what law we’re talking about. Extradition is distinct from jurisdiction. If the U.S. kidnaps someone to get them here for trial or can garnish their wages, then extradition is irrelevant, for example. And, obviously, that’s just the United States. Domestic law will vary on this concept. There are some international law norms here, but not many. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/8 "2014-08-20T01:29:32Z")
I always wondered about this while travelling on international flights. I’d be going from Frankfurt to Amsterdam and the announcement would say "Federal law forbids smoking, tampering with or disabling the smoke detector’. I’m on a non-US airline travelling from one foreign country to another, what does the Federal law have to do with it? How does the US reach out thousands of miles from its borders to interfere with my smoking practices? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/9 "2014-08-20T01:40:59Z")
The short version is, of course, because we can. The FAA issues operation certificates to carriers that have any U.S.-based operations and certain U.S.-connected operations (which is most of them). And “[e]ach certificate holder shall, while operating an airplane within a foreign country, comply with the air traffic rules of the country concerned and the local airport rules, **except where any rule of this part is more restrictive and may be followed without violating the rules of that country**.” So I guess if the country has a statute protecting your right to tamper with smoke detectors then you’re in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/10 "2014-08-20T01:50:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > …When can Congress apply a law abroad?..In the case of child sex tourism, the courts have defended the power to extend the law abroad as a valid exercise of the foreign commerce clause. It is unclear whether Congress could regulate, say, international rape where no money is exchanged. And the law must also comply with due process, which may have some requirements for a nexus between the crime and the country where it is prosecuted… Interestingly enough, [“marital rape”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_marital_rape_in_Pakistani_law) is not recognized as a crime in Pakistan, as well as several other countries. If a US citizen were to force sex on their US citizen spouse in a hotel room in Karachi, it looks like Pakistan would not consider that a crime. But can the perp just come back to the US like nothing happened? In a practical sense, divorce is likely to occur, and if not, the relationship is going to be rocky, but can he just go about the rest of his life in no danger of being prosecuted and put on the sex offender registry? You could make an argument either way. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/11 "2014-08-20T01:53:45Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > In 1989, the United States sent its armed forces to Panama to “extradite” its president [Manuel Noriega](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega) for violating US law while in Panama. Exactly why and how this happened, however, is pretty important: Noriega was charged with a conspiracy to commit crimes in _America_. Which he absolutely did. He was taken captive in a separate issue relating to his\* de facto \*takeover of Panama. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/12 "2014-08-20T01:54:05Z")
It probably wasn’t what the OP intended since it is pretty obvious but aren’t there a host of espionage and other treasonous crimes that are clearly in the national interest to enforce? Defection, spilling secrets overseas, embassy spycraft, military interference, etc. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/13 "2014-08-20T01:59:59Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Interestingly enough, [“marital rape”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_marital_rape_in_Pakistani_law) is not recognized as a crime in Pakistan, as well as several other countries. If a US citizen were to force sex on their US citizen spouse in a hotel room in Karachi, it looks like Pakistan would not consider that a crime. But can the perp just come back to the US like nothing happened? In a practical sense, divorce is likely to occur, and if not, the relationship is going to be rocky, but can he just go about the rest of his life in no danger of being prosecuted and put on the sex offender registry? > > You could make an argument either way. In principle the legislature could enact a law making it a crime for a citizen to rape someone anywhere in the world, or making it a crime to rape a citizen anywhere in the world. (Subject to the point already made above that in a US context a _state_ legislature could not validly enact such a law without the co-operation of the feds). They could then enforce that law against a violater who was foolish enough to return to the jurisidction. They couldn’t extradite, if the rape wasn’t a crime in the jurisdiction in which it actually happened. Whether an US legislature _has_ enacted such a law is a question of fact, but my suspicion is that they have not. In practical terms enforcing extrajudicial criminal offences is difficult and expensive, and I don’t see the legislature making it a priority unless there was a signficant problem of Americans bringing their spouses to Pakistan for the purpose of raping them. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/14 "2014-08-20T02:05:38Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In principle the legislature could enact a law making it a crime for a citizen to rape someone anywhere in the world, or making it a crime to rape a citizen anywhere in the world. (Subject to the point already made above that in a US context a _state_ legislature could not validly enact such a law without the co-operation of the feds)… For the scholars here - would that pass Constitutional scrutiny? I don’t think rape is normally considered a commercial transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/15 "2014-08-20T02:05:55Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Interestingly enough, [“marital rape”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_marital_rape_in_Pakistani_law) is not recognized as a crime in Pakistan, as well as several other countries. If a US citizen were to force sex on their US citizen spouse in a hotel room in Karachi, it looks like Pakistan would not consider that a crime. But can the perp just come back to the US like nothing happened? In a practical sense, divorce is likely to occur, and if not, the relationship is going to be rocky, but can he just go about the rest of his life in no danger of being prosecuted and put on the sex offender registry? > > You could make an argument either way. It’s an interesting question whether any state rape law is extra-territorial, and if so, whether it would survive constitutional scrutiny. Of course, marital rape was legal in parts of the U.S. until 1993 (!). I believe the federal government applies many domestic criminal laws to federal employees who are abroad. But assuming this hypothetical couple are not federal employees, I think the wife would have a difficult time prosecuting the husband here. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/16 "2014-08-20T02:07:55Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > For the scholars here - would that pass Constitutional scrutiny? I don’t think rape is normally considered a commercial transaction. The constitutional questions would be (1) is the law sufficiently approved by the federal government to avoid it being an infringement on the federal government’s foreign affairs power and (2) is due process satisfied by enforcement. I doubt that an extra-territorial rape law would fall to either of those challenges, actually, when applied to two U.S. nationals. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/17 "2014-08-20T03:59:43Z")
The USA has a law that criminalizes any American who has sex anywhere in the world with a person under 18. The offender can be arrested and prosecuted when returning to the USA, even if the “minor” is of legal age of consent in the country where the “crime” takes place. If the age of consent in your state is 16, and you travel to Italy, where the legal age of consent is 14, you can be arrested when you get home if you have sex with a 17-year old in Italy. > **[Extraterritorial Sexual Exploitation Of Children](https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/extraterritorial-sexual-exploitation-children)** ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/18 "2014-08-20T04:12:27Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > The USA has a law that criminalizes any American who has sex anywhere in the world with a person under 18 . . . No, it doesn’t. The law in question only penalises someone who travels to another country with the intent of engaging in sexual conduct with a minor. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/19 "2014-08-20T04:29:02Z")
You can be prosecuted for draft dodging, even if you had not yet been called up when you left the country. In the case of the US, you were expected to return when you got a draft notice. In the case of countries like Israel, you are in trouble for not returning to Israel for military service when you are 18 (or, you actually may have until you are 19 or 20 to return), even if you left as a baby. Also, if you are in the US military, the drinking age is 21, regardless of what the drinking age is in the country where you are stationed, and that is true even if you are on leave. During the last Iraq war, it was a “dry” war. No drinking was permitted on any of the bases in Iran, Kuwait, or that area. If you went back to the US for leave, and you were over 21, you could drink, and if you got a pass for R&R in Qatar, you got coupons that were good for buying two beers a day-- again, if you were over 21. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/20 "2014-08-20T06:26:13Z")
> [@Qwertol](#): > > Is it possible to commit a crime in a country being outside that country? \*Three Members of International Cyber Fraud Ring Extradited from Romania to the United States U.S. Attorney’s Office May 02, 2013 Romanian nationals Cristea Mircea, Ion Pieptea, and Nicolae Simion will make their first appearance before United States District Judge Edward R. Korman later today following their extradition to the United States from Romania. The defendants are charged with participating in a sophisticated multi-million-dollar cyber fraud scheme that targeted consumers on U.S.-based Internet marketplace websites such as [eBay.com](http://eBay.com).\* [http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/three-members-of-international-cyber-fraud-ring-extradited-from-romania-to-the-united-states](http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/three-members-of-international-cyber-fraud-ring-extradited-from-romania-to-the-united-states) > [@Qwertol](#): > > What about situation like this: something is legal in country A but illegal in country B, you do that something in country A. Can you be extradited to country B (assuming they have an extradition treaty)? \*Gerhard Rex Lauck (born 1953) is an American neo-Nazi activist and publisher. Based in Lincoln, Nebraska, he is sometimes nicknamed the “Farm Belt Fuehrer” due to his rural origins. Lauck was arrested in Denmark in 1995, leading to a far right campaign in the USA against plans to extradite him to Germany, where he was wanted for distributing neo-Nazi propaganda.Nevertheless Lauck was deported to Hamburg where he was tried and found guilty of distributing neo-Nazi pamphlets. He was sentenced to four years imprisonment.\* > **[Gary Lauck](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Lauck)** > > Gerhard Rex Lauck (born May 12, 1953) is an American neo-Nazi activist and publisher. Based in Lincoln, Nebraska, he is sometimes referred to as the "Farm Belt Führer" due to his perceived rural origins. > Gary Lauck was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on May 12, 1953, to a German-American family. At the age of eleven, he moved with his family to Lincoln, Nebraska, where his father became a professor of engineering at the University of Nebraska. Lauck skipped his senior year of high school and atten... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959.md?page=2)