# Can you break the country's law being outside that country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959 "2014-08-20T00:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/81 "2014-08-21T20:22:35Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > This has given rise to a number of cases where individuals have been extradited to the US to face justice for crimes which seem pretty minor league…well look for yourself: > > [http://www.friends-extradited.org/](http://www.friends-extradited.org/) > > There are some sad cases, people have ended up in SuperMax prisons for what seem to be offences that break no law in the UK but seem part of the speculative nature of judicial prosecution in the US. > > . “defraud NatWest Bank (where the three bankers had worked) of $7.3 million.” They plead guilty and were sentenced to 3 years in prison. Bank fraud isnt a crime in the UK?:dubious: “plead guilty to one count of wire fraud in February 2009 (2.5 years after his extradition), and was sentenced to 27 months in prison” Wire fraud isnt a crime?:dubious: I dont see anyone convicted of “_crimes which seem pretty minor league_” or _"offences that break no law in the UK "_ ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/82 "2014-08-21T20:29:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The existence of an extradition treaty between the UK and the US is the reason Assange is fighting extradition from the UK to Sweden? > > You’ll have to connect the dots a bit for me. If Assange is worried that the UK is too lax, extradition to Sweden takes him out of the British jurisdiction. Assange obviously would be taken into custody by UK authorities once he leaves the embassy, not by Swedish. And given the special relationship between the UK and the US and especially given the fact that the UK hands over even its own citizens to the US in a heartbeat, the assumption probably is that the UK will deliver him to the Americans rather than to the Swedish, once the US government announces its desire to get hold of him. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/83 "2014-08-21T22:53:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “defraud NatWest Bank (where the three bankers had worked) of $7.3 million.” They plead guilty and were sentenced to 3 years in prison. Bank fraud isnt a crime in the UK?:dubious: > > “plead guilty to one count of wire fraud in February 2009 (2.5 years after his extradition), and was sentenced to 27 months in prison” Wire fraud isnt a crime?:dubious: > > I dont see anyone convicted of “_crimes which seem pretty minor league_” or _"offences that break no law in the UK "_ You are right, these are serious crimes that are illegal in the UK. However they were not prosecuted in the UK because of lack of evidence. The prosecution in the US was obtained as a result of a plea bargain. It is amazing what people will admit to in the face of the prospect of spending decades in a Supermax. While the bankers had the wherewithall to defend themselves. Other victims of the extradition laws did not have the resources to mount a defence. > **[UK–US extradition treaty of 2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK%E2%80%94US_extradition_treaty_of_2003)** > > The UK–US extradition treaty of 2003 was implemented by the UK in the Extradition Act 2003 and came into force in April 2007 following its ratification by the US Senate in 2006. > The allegedly one-sided treaty allows the US to demand extradition of British citizens and other nationals for offences committed against US law, even though the alleged offence may have been committed in the UK by a person living and working in the UK (see, for example, the NatWest Three), there is no evidence to sugge... It is interesting to note that successive UK Home Secretaries have supported the principle of the Treaty despite these cases that seem to serious miscarriages of justice. I suspect the reason is that they need a legal instrument to rid the UK of suspected terrorists who have rather inconveniently had not committed a crime in the UK. Public enemy No 1. was Abu Hamza who had been for many years a character who taunted the UK authorities as it tried every way possible to deport him. He loomed large as the face of Islamic terrorism, half blind with hooks on his hands and the press had for years been publishing story after story about he and his family living on welfare at the same time as promoting terrorism. In the UK, if you have no funds, the state is obliged to pay your legal fees. He went through the courts leveraging Human Rights legislation to the considerable exasperation of the government. Bear in mind that London was subject to a bombing campaign in 2005 that claimed many lives. He was a gift to the febrile press in the UK. A terrorist hate figure that looked like a Bond villain. The UK authorities needed that law to finally get rid of him and allow the US to extradite him. > **[Abu Hamza al-Masri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri)** > > Mustafa Kamel Mustafa (Arabic: مصطفى كامل مصطفى; born 15 April 1958), also known as Abu Hamza al-Masri (/ˈɑːbuː ˈhɑːmzə ɑːl ˈmɑːsri/ ⓘ; أبو حمزة المصري, Abū Ḥamzah al-Maṣrī – literally, father of Hamza, the Egyptian), or simply Abu Hamza, is an Egyptian cleric who was the imam of Finsbury Park Mosque in London, where he preached Islamic fundamentalist views. > The UK tabloid press nicknamed him "Captain Hook" in allusion to the fictional pirate Captain Hook, due to his prosthetic hook devices. Abu Hanza will be sentenced in the US in the next month or so. Sadly, the law was used by other US authorities to pursue cases in the UK, that were not quite so clearly concerned with terrorism: financial crime , copyright infringement. Often with the collusion of the UK government. Some, like McKinnon, the Aspergers sufferer who claimed to looking for evidence of UFOs, were portrayed by the UK authorities as the perpetrator of a huge security breach against the US military. He was prosecuted after the 2003 extradition act made it possible. > **[| IT News Archive | ComputerWeekly.com](https://www.computerweekly.com/news)** > > Read all of the IT news from ComputerWeekly.com in this archive. Access all of our IT news articles and features published in the current month. The bankers (who could buy good PR) led to a much public unease in the press regarding the balance of the extradition law. They were similarly prosecuted for these offenses only once the Act was passed. UK politicians have had to do some deft footwork and media management to keep it in place. It seems have been used as evidence that the Government is doing something about serious international crime. They pass a law, then go looking for likely candidates for its application. So it is with badly framed laws passed in haste in times of emergency by governments anxious to prove they are in control of the situation. :smack: So yes, you can buy break the countries law from outside that country. But it requires the collusion of the government of the country concerned to bring you to justice. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/84 "2014-08-21T22:56:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, it is possible. For example, the United States provides for criminal penalties for Americans who engage in child sex tourism. > > However, the typical extradition treaty requires that the offense be illegal in both countries. If something is legal in country B, but illegal in A, there’s generally no basis for an individual in country B to be sent to country A. Here’s a related question: If a person were to do something illegal under US law while abroad, the US requests extradition, and the foreign country refuses to extradite the person, what happens when the person’s status in that country expires? Wouldn’t they just deport him back to the USA anyway when his visa expired? Or does a refusal to extradite come with an offer of asylum? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/85 "2014-08-22T00:54:48Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Here’s a related question: If a person were to do something illegal under US law while abroad, the US requests extradition, and the foreign country refuses to extradite the person, what happens when the person’s status in that country expires? Wouldn’t they just deport him back to the USA anyway when his visa expired? Or does a refusal to extradite come with an offer of asylum? Much is going to depend on the facts. You are assuming that the person’s right to remain in the host country is time-limited; this is not necessarily the case. And, if it is time-limited, he may have other options than simply waiting for the time to expire and then being deported; he may, for instance, travel to a third country where he has an indefinite right to remain. Or, if he does wait for deportation, he won’t necessarily be deported to the US. What if he’s not a US citizen? What if he has US nationality, plus the nationality of some other country? In general, a refusal to extradite does not come with an offer of asylum. But in a particular case, the grounds on which extradition is refused might also be relevant to an application for asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/86 "2014-08-22T03:02:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How would that work if we’re married? Since in many US states you can get married well before 18, then if I honeymoon in Paris I am arrested when I get back home?:dubious: There’s a legal exception to married couples. Best to keep that marriage license handy for inspection. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/87 "2014-08-22T04:46:54Z")
Siam Sam: Wasn’t there a fairly recent case where a naturalized US citizen, formerly a citizen of Thailand, published a book critical of the Thai monarch and when said US citizen visited family in Thailand, was arrested for les majeste? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/88 "2014-08-22T05:45:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Siam Sam: Wasn’t there a fairly recent case where a naturalized US citizen, formerly a citizen of Thailand, published a book critical of the Thai monarch and when said US citizen visited family in Thailand, was arrested for les majeste? Yes there was. But I’m not going to discuss that. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/89 "2014-08-22T06:27:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Siam Sam: Wasn’t there a fairly recent case where a naturalized US citizen, formerly a citizen of Thailand, published a book critical of the Thai monarch and when said US citizen visited family in Thailand, was arrested for les majeste? Yes, this and other cases are discussed in the Wikipedia article on the subject: > **[Lèse-majesté in Thailand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se_majest%C3%A9_in_Thailand)** > > In Thailand, lèse-majesté is a crime according to Section 112 of the Thai Criminal Code, which makes it illegal to defame, insult, or threaten the king of Thailand, the queen of Thailand, the heir to the throne of Thailand, or the regent of Thailand. Modern Thai lèse-majesté law has been on the statute books since 1908. Thailand is the only constitutional monarchy to have strengthened its lèse-majesté law since the Second World War. With penalties ranging from three to fifteen years imprisonme... ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/90 "2014-08-22T11:14:13Z")
[http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,36563.html](http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,36563.html) > [@](#): > > US wants 5 for hostage-taking > > TWO SOLDIERS and three civilians were yesterday served with provisional warrants for their extradition to Washington DC to face two charges of keeping US citizen Balram “Balo” Maharaj hostage. > > It is an offence in the United States to keep a citizen or national of that country hostage in and out of the US. > [@](#): > > They are charged with conspiracy to commit hostage-taking resulting in death, and hostage-taking resulting in death, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1203 (a). > > Title 18 states, “Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure, or to continue to detain another person in order to compel a third person or a governmental organisation to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the person detained, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life and, if the death of any person results, shall be punished by death or life imprisonment.” That was a case where a dual citizen was kidnapped and killed for money, It didn’t make much sense but the US government pushed for extradition to the US to stand trial for the accused. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/91 "2014-08-22T13:20:13Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Here’s a related question: If a person were to do something illegal under US law while abroad, the US requests extradition, and the foreign country refuses to extradite the person, what happens when the person’s status in that country expires? Wouldn’t they just deport him back to the USA anyway when his visa expired? Or does a refusal to extradite come with an offer of asylum? IIRC, Canada has had several cases where they want to deport someone, but then the person claims they are not going to be safe in their home country. At that point, the person becomes a legitimate refugee and allowed to stay until circumstances change. Of course, there’s a difference between fear of life and limb and fear of possibly tainted prosecution. But, since generally a person can only be deported to their home country (unless they and the third country agree to leave voluntarily) if a judge has refused to allow their extradition, that’s probably a good case to stay too. (Canada has also run into situations where they’d like to deport someone, but they’ve destroyed their travel documents and aren’t cooperating, so their (alleged) home country won’t take them without proof they come from there. Negotiations typically follow…) The case of Charles Ng, who helped torture and kill numerous women in California, probably comes close to this question. Canada was in the process of extradition, and had been refusing to extradite because California would not take the death penalty off the table. After protracted discussion, California said “fine, you keep him. He’ll be out of jail for his Canadian crimes soon, then he’s Canada’s problem.” (Implying as the OP asks, after a denied extradition he was home free in Canada). Eventually the Canadian government decided to let him be extradited, IIRC. He is currently on death row. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/92 "2014-08-22T14:17:39Z")
Ng is Hong Kong born and, IIRC, the Canadians could have deported him to Hong Kong. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/93 "2014-08-22T14:19:23Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > IIRC, Canada has had several cases where they want to deport someone, but then the person claims they are not going to be safe in their home country. At that point, the person becomes a legitimate refugee and allowed to stay until circumstances change. It’s not as simple as that. A person doesn’t become a refugee just by making a claim. There is a well-established process where the claimant has to establish a reasonable basis that the claimant would be in jeopardy if returned to the home country. > [@](#): > > The case of Charles Ng, who helped torture and kill numerous women in California, probably comes close to this question. Canada was in the process of extradition, and had been refusing to extradite because California would not take the death penalty off the table. After protracted discussion, California said “fine, you keep him. He’ll be out of jail for his Canadian crimes soon, then he’s Canada’s problem.” (Implying as the OP asks, after a denied extradition he was home free in Canada). Eventually the Canadian government decided to let him be extradited, IIRC. He is currently on death row. This is a completely wrong statement of what happened in the Ng case. The US applied to extradite him on capital charges. Ng opposed extradition, arguing that extraditing him to face the death penalty would violate the Canadian Charter. The government of Canada **opposed** Ng’s application, and **supported** the US, arguing in court that Canada could extradite him to the US to face the death penalty, without breaching the Charter. The Supreme Court ruled in Canada’s favour and rejected Ng’s arguments. Canada then extradited Ng without any conditions, allowing California to prosecute him on a death penalty charge. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959/94 "2014-08-22T23:28:08Z")
Norway made it illegale in 2009 to purchase sex(as in have sex with a prostitute). Oddly enough, it’s still legal to sell sex. This law has a world wide effect for Norwegian citizens, meaning it’s possible to be prosecuted for buying sex even if the country one is in has no law against it. Several people have in fact been fined after purchasing sex abroad under this statue, most famously a member of parlament. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-break-the-countrys-law-being-outside-that-country/695959.md?page=4)