# Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 15, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966 "2012-05-15T04:18:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Corcaigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Corcaigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corcaigh)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/41 "2012-05-16T16:49:06Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > **Corcaigh** , that sounds horrible. I’m really sorry to hear that. Thanks. It’s not to bad given we live in separate countries (thank frank!) > [@](#): > > I’ve seen ‘bad’ kids in my teaching, but only a couple were well, _bad_. To me, it’s hard to see a kid as ‘bad’. They’re just kids. It’s hard to tell what’s just typical kid behaviour and what’s potentially dangerous. Looking back I’d have said my other brother, who was a bugger for pulling the wings off flies would have been teh crazy when he grew up… > [@](#): > > I finally stopped talking to my father a few months ago. I feel a lot better. Most of us are convinced he’s a total sociopath. He just does.not.compute. So I gave up. I don’t love him because he’s not ‘real’ to me. And he can’t hurt me because he’s just mentally and morally incompetent, so it’s as pointless as being angry at a baby. He’s pretty much soulless, so why bother? I know what you mean. I’m relieved that my brother decided he couldn’t stand being in the same room as me any more, and doesn’t visit us n’more. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/42 "2012-05-16T16:57:15Z")
> [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](#): > > I agree. I don’t think anything positive can come of this group setting. That part of the original article was freaking me out. What an incredibly bad idea! I’ve heard of schools for the Arts or School for Science but School for psychos! If these kids don’t grow up to be petty criminals they usually end up running large corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/43 "2012-05-16T17:49:31Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > This really is tangent to the thread, so I’m not going to really continue this, but the article says they are using the terms specifically. I’m not a behaviorist, but the Wiki article on punishment, seems to support this definition. > > [/hijack] I am a behaviorist. 🙂 When a behavior receives no consequence, that is known as extinction. So the example the article gives as punishment (ignoring the dog, i.e. no consequence) is actually extinction. Sorry for the tangent. I don’t really mind when people use “reward” and “punishment” colloquially, and of course I don’t bother to correct them. But the article claims to be defining behaviorist terms, and they did it incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/44 "2012-05-16T18:01:53Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Even if it was \*your \*kid? Especially, if it was my kid. I would consider it a civic reponsibility to have him or her put down before they harmed someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/45 "2012-05-16T18:17:35Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > **Spiff** , you have my sympathies. That has to be hard. What do you do? Is everything pretty much a fight? That’s really too bad. I hope things work out. Are you getting help? Thank you for your sympathies. Yes, we are getting help. The three of us (mom, dad, daughter) are going through [DBT](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy) – although she is highly resistant to that. She is very hostile to us. ODD is like angry teenager times 10. She can’t stand to be in the same room as us. She has underlying depression, which we also discovered in January. The psychologists and psychiatrists say that the anger toward us may be a manifestation of the depression. I.e., she’s angry at being depressed, and she’s taking it out on us. But there’s also no denying that she’s been defiant for a long time before she became depressed. In my opinion, much of her depression has been caused by her ODD. She loses friends, mainly because she has black and white thinking. If a friend makes one little mistake in the relationship that pisses my daughter off, that friend gets written off immediately and my daughter will have nothing to do with this ex-friend. And her grudges last a long time. Some friends do come back into the fold, so to speak, but it’s probably not long until they slip up and get cast out again. Many justifiably stop wanting to put up with that s\*\*t and tell my daughter to get lost. Anyway, in retrospect, we should have recognized her ODD behavior a lot sooner. She has always been defiant to us, starting in small ways at an early age. It really kind of sneaked up on us. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/46 "2012-05-16T19:25:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?** Technically no. The DSM-IV requires adulthood (18+) for a personality disorder diagnosis. The idea is that a person’s personality is still very malleable at this time. Hence the therapy: they’re trying to catch symptoms early and prevent the disorder ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/47 "2012-05-17T00:11:40Z")
I just read the deeply disturbing article and this is what I see and what I think should be the baseline consideration before reacting at all… I see an ambitious reporter who got himself a sensational or “sexy” story. I see parents (victims–HMO victims?) who did the best with what they had to work with–people who by virtue of whatever local (and lousy, usually) credentials get to hang a shingle and opine wasting the parents time. I see a researcher happy for publicity who did a reward system study not unlike basic dog training. Essentially I see a **non-story** with no science regarding this particular kid. My cheap knee-jerk reaction? Where were the meds? This kid’s brain MRI and more. ANd clearly we are dealing with some high IQ kids here, whatever that is worth–not t hat anybody seemed to notice that. The days of psychoanalysis and bio/psycho/social and systems theories are over. EVen Freud conceded that it all may come down to neurology when all is said and done. There’s not a damn thing wrong with the parents unless there’s some kind of genetic history but this writer didn’t go there with this child. IMHO the article is a piece of shit and the NYT should be ashamed of themselves for publishing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/48 "2012-05-17T00:13:44Z")
What meds? There aren’t any that work at all for sociopathy, last I looked into it. ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/49 "2012-05-17T00:20:45Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > What meds? There aren’t any that work at all for sociopathy, last I looked into it. The kid, from what that writer wrote, does not appear to have gotten a proper work-up. We could discuss this for years. Problem is that I used to get paid for this and I already gave. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/50 "2012-05-17T00:25:22Z")
LOL! That is true! > [@Zebra](#): > > That part of the original article was freaking me out. What an incredibly bad idea! I’ve heard of schools for the Arts or School for Science but School for psychos! > If these kids don’t grow up to be petty criminals they usually end up running large corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/51 "2012-05-17T02:47:24Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > IMHO the article is a piece of shit and the NYT should be ashamed of themselves for publishing it. ABC News did a story a few years ago on childhood schizophrenia which was broadcast on ABC. You can watch it [here](http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/166626/254267/inside-the-world-of-childhood-schizophrenia). “Firstborn syndrome” seems to apply not just to Michael in the NYT article but also to Jani in the ABC story. And when Michael attempted to press the erase button on the reporter’s audio recorder, it was similar to when Becca said, “Get rid of this camera!” to the video recorder in the psych ward. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/52 "2012-05-17T06:25:04Z")
Anyone advocating killing children because they show symptoms of an untreatable mental illness, I wonder if they are just trying to eliminate the competition? Seriously most sociopaths/psychopaths/acronym du jour/ are not criminals or violent, they are just cold unemotional people. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/53 "2012-05-17T06:55:30Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > It’s _my_ half-brother. If he were a chicken the other chickens would have long ago pecked him to death. But we’re not chickens. And the potential to commit future crimes is not a punishable offense. A guest on \*Bullshit \*once said, “With all due respect, chickens are stupid. \*Very \*stupid.” To equate the actions of chickens and humans in an effort to justify homicide is so repugnant I can’t put it into strong-enough words. What the hell kind of justice is that? It’s not the kid’s fault they were born a sociopath. Our justice system punishes people after they commit crimes (or after being caught planning a crime in _great detail_), not before. Get a grip. :rolleyes: > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Especially, if it was my kid. I would consider it a civic reponsibility to have him or her put down before they harmed someone else. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio. It’s sad that some people are so small-minded as to think their outlook on this matter wouldn’t change once they had a child. Of \*course \*it would. Hormones and maternal attachment are extraordinarily more powerful than you seem capable of understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Sacrilegium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@Sacrilegium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrilegium)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/54 "2012-05-17T15:02:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Seriously most sociopaths/psychopaths/acronym du jour/ are not criminals or violent, they are just cold unemotional people. Most? Hmmmm. I’m not sure how you could know this. There isn’t currently a really effective test for determining if one is a sociopath/pyschopath, so how could you get an accurate count of how many sociopaths there are and what percentages of them aren’t criminals or violent? Or (my main concern) committing lots of crimes but not getting caught, therefore not technically being “criminals”? The known ones (and I’m using “known” a little loosely, due to the lack of a smoking-gun-identifying-thingamajig) commit a disproportionate number of crimes. They’re 1% of the population, yet 25% of the prison population. This has been a pet subject of mine lately. I’ve recently read _The Sociopath Next Door_, _The Psychopath Test_ and _Bad Men Do What Good Mean Dream_. I’m now reading _Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work_. I just find the subject fascinating as hell. Almost enough to want to go back to school and become a psychologist, if I weren’t so old and lazy and didn’t want to take on new debt. As for putting sociopaths together among each other, yeah, that does seem to be a bad idea. Elliot Barker’s experimental LSD therapy with a group of sociopaths acting as each other’s “therapists” didn’t turn out well. It just made them better manipulators (better able to convince the hospital that they’d been cured) and they actually ended up with a 20% _higher_ recidivism rate after this therapy. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/55 "2012-05-17T21:46:43Z")
> [@Sacrilegium](#): > > Most? Hmmmm. I’m not sure how you could know this. There isn’t currently a really effective test for determining if one is a sociopath/pyschopath, so how could you get an accurate count of how many sociopaths there are and what percentages of them aren’t criminals or violent? Or (my main concern) committing lots of crimes but not getting caught, therefore not technically being “criminals”? The known ones (and I’m using “known” a little loosely, due to the lack of a smoking-gun-identifying-thingamajig) commit a disproportionate number of crimes. They’re 1% of the population, yet 25% of the prison population. > > This has been a pet subject of mine lately. I’ve recently read _The Sociopath Next Door_, _The Psychopath Test_ and _Bad Men Do What Good Mean Dream_. I’m now reading _Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work_. I just find the subject fascinating as hell. Almost enough to want to go back to school and become a psychologist, if I weren’t so old and lazy and didn’t want to take on new debt. > > As for putting sociopaths together among each other, yeah, that does seem to be a bad idea. Elliot Barker’s experimental LSD therapy with a group of sociopaths acting as each other’s “therapists” didn’t turn out well. It just made them better manipulators (better able to convince the hospital that they’d been cured) and they actually ended up with a 20% _higher_ recidivism rate after this therapy. So, does a psychopath EVER think that he is doing anything wrong? Does the concept of morality exist for these people, or is everything subordinated to their own egos? ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/56 "2012-05-17T21:51:42Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > ABC News did a story a few years ago on childhood schizophrenia which was broadcast on ABC. You can watch it [here](http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/166626/254267/inside-the-world-of-childhood-schizophrenia). Holy \*\*\*\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*. I don’t think I’d wish this on my worst enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Sacrilegium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@Sacrilegium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrilegium)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/57 "2012-05-17T22:03:29Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So, does a psychopath EVER think that he is doing anything wrong? Does the concept of morality exist for these people, or is everything subordinated to their own egos? A real trained expert is probably more suited to answer that question, but I’ll answer as best I can. From what I understand, morality does not exist for them. Everything is about getting what they want and “winning the game.” They need lots of stimulation and need high levels of drama. They get gratification out of taking things away from others, from getting ahead, from crushing those who would oppose them. But “right” and “wrong”? No, not for the classic sociopath. To them, those are just concepts the rest of us are duped by. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/58 "2012-05-17T22:08:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So, does a psychopath EVER think that he is doing anything wrong? Does the concept of morality exist for these people, or is everything subordinated to their own egos? No, not as you or I understand it. Lack of remorse for violating the rights of others is a defining characteristic of psychopathy. Take this quote, for example: “Guilt is this mechanism we use to control people. It’s an illusion. It’s a kind of social control mechanism and it’s very unhealthy. It does terrible things to our bodies. And there are much better ways to control our behaviour than that rather extraordinary use of guilt. It doesn’t solve anything, necessarily. It’s just a very gross technique we impose upon ourselves to control the people, groups of people. I guess I am in the enviable position of not having to deal with guilt. There’s just no reason for it.” - Ted Bundy, on death row after killing 36+ people. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966/59 "2012-05-17T22:23:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What’s especially scary to me is the implication that reproducible changes in brain anatomy and/or physiology may be linked to sociopathy, providing a defense in criminal cases that could result in sociopaths being increasingly sent to treatment facilities instead of prison. Since they’re so good at feigning empathetic behavior, they could readily fool caregivers into thinking they’re dramatically improved and ready for release back into society. I don’t think it matters where they are sent as long as they aren’t mingling with the rest of us. They should have a minimum time that they have to spend in whatever institution they are sent to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath/621966.md?page=2)