# Can you call it a Martini when there's no vermouth? Is it even legal?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [October 1, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954 "2003-10-01T17:41:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/21 "2003-10-02T04:35:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by International Playboy \*
> \*\*Another way is to swish the Vermouth in the glass and pour it in before adding the cocktail. \*\*
OOPS! That should be “swish the Vermouth in the glass and pour it **out** before adding the cocktail.”
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### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/22 "2003-10-02T05:03:36Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by International Playboy \*
> \*\*
> Interestingly, if you order a dry Martini instead of straight or on the rocks gin or vodka, you’ve just increased the price of basically the same drink.
>
> \*\*
I had just gone to bed when I realized this mistake. It should have read:
"Interestingly, **if you order an extra dry Martini on the rocks** , instead of just plain on the rocks gin or vodka, you’ve just increased the price of basically the same drink.
(In addition to sampling several different concotions in class, you also got two or three full drinks of your own, including one you mixed yourself behind the bar. So many brain cells were killed in calss and I didn’t have the best subject retention. Another reason I took it twice. 😛 )
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### Author:  [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/23 "2003-10-02T10:13:10Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by stuyguy \*
> Hey, how about a little respect for trademarks? Vermouth is a brand name. Please capitalize it.
No, it’s not. Merriam-Webster: “a dry or sweet aperitif wine flavored with aromatic herbs and often used in mixed drinks”
Martini, on the other hand is.
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### Author:  [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/24 "2003-10-02T15:15:57Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by International Playboy \*Interestingly, **if you order an extra dry Martini on the rocks** , instead of just plain on the rocks gin or vodka, you’ve just increased the price of basically the same drink.
[/QUOTE
???
No, if you order a plain gin on the rocks, you’re served a single. If you order a martini, you’re given a martini portion (which I don’t believe is a double, but something like 1 1/2). So, you’re paying extra for more alcohol.
**5-HT** , what’s a _vodka_ martini? 😕😉
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/25 "2003-10-02T16:40:59Z")
a) If I’m going to drink straight distilled spirits, I’m going to go with scotch, tequila, bourbon, or rum. If those aren’t available, rye, cognac, saki or vodka. Gin would be the bottom of the list, more or less on par with peppermint schnapps.
b) Calling gin in a glass a “martini” doesn’t make it a mixed drink. To be a mixed drink, the distilled spirits have to actually mix with something other than themselves. To be sure, I would not, having tasted gin a couple of times (usually by accident), recommend mixing it with vermouth.
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### Author:  [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/26 "2003-10-02T18:01:25Z")
My Dad drank _very_ dry vodka martinis. He had this little ritual:
Put ice in short glass. Fill to top with vodka. Pour vermouth into its cap. Pour vermouth back into bottle. Take cap and shake it over glass of vodka. If a drop fell in, ok. If not, that’s ok too. Add 3 olives on a toothpick. Stir.
(Blech!)
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### Author:  [@gossamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gossamer)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/27 "2003-10-02T18:14:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by International Playboy \*
> \*\*
> We were also taught some history on the drink in the class I took. A Martini with an onion instead of an olive is called a “Gibson.” Turns out the man the drink was named after was a millionaire teatotaler, who liked to give partys. He would drink water and used the onion to distinguish his drink from the others. Others wanted to emulate him and thought he was drinking alcohol, so they started drinking Martinis with onions in them.
> \*\*
I would not call this a Gibson. A classic Gibson is mixed 1:1 gin to dry vermouth, served in a cocktail glass, and garnished with a cocktail onion.
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### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/28 "2003-10-02T18:58:04Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by gossamer \*
> \*\*I would not call this a Gibson. A classic Gibson is mixed 1:1 gin to dry vermouth, served in a cocktail glass, and garnished with a cocktail onion. \*\*
Interesting but I still stand by my statement. I did a Google search on “Classic Gibson” and found no 50/50 mixtures called a gibson. The recipes I did find were pretty much a Martini with an olive in it, such as the one [here](http://www.obh.snafu.de/~solon/lofab/cocktails/cocktail_1437.html) and [here](http://www.restaurants.com/Gourmet/Drinks/DrinkRecipes.asp?DrinkID=618).
I did find [this site](http://members.aol.com/zigystar/zigyspick/) though, which gives a couple of other origins of the Gibson name. Still describes it as a Martini with onions instead of olives though.
I guess cocktails, like many other things are regional and a matter of taste. I remember the evening following my first Martini class. I was to meet a woman for dinner. While waiting for my date to arrive, I sat at the bar of the restaurant, where someone ordered a dry Martini. I watched closely as the bartender made it, and had to restrain myself from telling her she did it all wrong. 😃
Also, back in my nightclubbing days, I would often drink what I learned was a “Salty Dog.” Gin and grapefruit juice in a highball glass with a salted rim. It seems now, whenever I order a mixed drink by that name, the bartender will get a funny look on their face like they’re thinking about it, and the drink will have vodka instead of gin in it. Moot point now as I’m not suppose to consume grapefruit anymore.
Another argument we could get into is cocktails vs. mixed drinks. I’ve seen in some bar guides that a cocktail is a drink like a Martini or a Manhattan, one that requires shaking or stirring. A mixed drink is something like a Salty Dog, a Screwdriver, or a 7 & 7, one that requires no art but just pouring booze and a mixer into a glass.
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### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/29 "2003-10-02T19:03:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Necros \*
> [B
> ???
> No, if you order a plain gin on the rocks, you’re served a single. If you order a martini, you’re given a martini portion (which I don’t believe is a double, but something like 1 1/2). So, you’re paying extra for more alcohol.
>
> \*\*
**Necros** , I’m just repeating what the instructor, who has been bartending for decades, told us. What you say makes sense though, on why there would be a difference in cost.
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### Author:  [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/30 "2003-10-02T19:31:23Z")
Gah, me either!, **AHunter3**. I detest gin. A vodka martini is very nice though. I enjoy a nice Chopin martini dirty every once in a while. mmm…potato vodka…
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### Author:  [@gossamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gossamer)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/31 "2003-10-03T16:24:06Z")
**International Playboy** : [Here’s](http://www.drinkoftheweek.com/archive/g/gibson.htm) one link to a Gibson as I learned it from some old bartenders, and as documented in the only printed guide I have handy, _Vintage Coctails, 1920-1960_, by Susan Waggoner and Robert Markel.
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### Author:  [@gossamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gossamer)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/32 "2003-10-03T16:26:41Z")
Well, I can’t read. The recipe I linked to says 2 drops, not ounces. Sheesh. Apologies all around. The book I referenced, however, gives the recipe as I stated earlier.
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### Author:  [@gossamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gossamer)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/33 "2003-10-03T16:33:55Z")
I found one web source for a 50/50 [Gibson](http://boozeking.com/drinks/gibson.htm).
Now back the the regularly scheduled thread . . .
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### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/34 "2003-10-03T17:02:25Z")
[b}gossamer\*\*, sounds like an interesting book.One reason I picked my name for this place, aside from the Jethro Bodine reference, is that I like the cocktail/swinging bachelor era of the late 50s to mid 60s.
I wrote my last post at work but I’m home today and just pulled out **The Craft of the Cocktail** , by Dale Degroff. It’s a really interesting guide which I bought a few months ago. His Gibson is based on the dry Martini, but I did find a couple of things that I think validates your recipe.
First is a quote about gin leading to his “Nick and Nora Martini”:
> [@](#):
>
> During Prohibition, the gin tasted so bad that everything imaginable was added to it to mask the flavor.
The “Nick and Nora” takes 1 and 1/2 oz of gin and 1/2 oz dry vermouth.
Second is a quote from the description of a “Knickerbocker Martini” :
> [@](#):
>
> The modern-style Martini of London Dry gin with dry vermouth wasn’t offered until the turn of the century. I call it the Knickerbocker Martini. Colonel John Jacob Astor’s Knickerbocker Hotel, built in 1906, housed one of the grandest bars in New York. (snip)
>
> The principle bartender, Martini di Arma di Taggia, made his famous “dry” Martini there.
>
> And although his recipe of equal parts of dry gin and dry vermouth was a long way off from our modern dry martini, it was the first combination of dry vermouth and dry gin. He mixed half Plymouth gin and half-dry or French vermouth with a dash of orange bitters.
Among the many Martini recipes in this book, he includes one for an “Upside-Down Martini”:
2 and 1/2 ounces French dry vermouth
1 ounce gin
lemon peel, for garnish
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### Author:  [@International\_Playboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/International_Playboy)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-call-it-a-martini-when-theres-no-vermouth-is-it-even-legal/204954/35 "2003-10-03T17:07:21Z")
**gossamer** , you posted that last one while I was composing mine.
It’s my turn to go “ewww” now. A maraschino cherry in gin and vermouth?
BTW, I saved that site in my "favorites’ list, thanks for the link.
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