I have provided more cites than anyone on paranormal abilities. They are seldom read and always dumped on by the skeptics. The Universite of Virginia is studying several paranormal themes. So is Duke University. There are studies being done in Holland and England also. The paranormal field is now anchored by near death experiences which prove consciousness continues after death. The evidence provided gives credence to other paranormal events.
The spiritual world’s existence is known and things like ESP, Psychics and such fit into this world easily.
In the above study it was stated.
P. van Lommel went on to say: “Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE. We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest.”
I know that skeptics might say Psychics have nothing to do with NDEs, but that is because they don’t understand the material.
All I can do it say to read the material in order to understand. The evidence is solid.
[ul][li]By hiring a magician to advise, to reduce the chances of deliberate fraud[]By using double-blind controls[]By defining what is to be proved IN ADVANCE rather than looking for patterns AFTER the test[/ul][/li][quote]
I would never alter or misquote Arthur C. Clarke as you have done. Sacrilege!
[/QUOTE]
Smiley when you say that, Podner!
Actually, I will agree with Clarke’s quote with or without the modification; my point being that even well-meaning scientists can be mislead by their predjuces, whether pro or con.
I can never prove that something does NOT exist. It is entirely possible that dozens of studies have been done that support your postulate, and they have been kept secret.
But just how likely is that? The scientific world would be all agog if the very existance of paranormal phenomena could be repeatedly proven by anyone and everyone. The scientific world has been waiting for over 200 years. So let’s see those studies!
Devilsknew,you are the one making the claim that would revolutionize science. You are the one upon whom the burden of proof falls. And it’s a heavy burden, indeed; don’t get crushed.
And how in the hell do you propose he prove that the study didn’t get replicated without providing the results of every single, solitary study published by every single, solitary educational intstitution in the entire world since that poorly-run PEAR study was done in the first place?!?
Did you not read my post? Of course they are becoming more positive.
In the research it was reported that no physical cause could be found for NDEs. This is a huge finding. Puts to rest all the “alternate theories” of skeptics. Now they are repeating the experiment. I am sure it will have the same result.
Do you understand that it means consciousness continues after the death of the body, and explains much about Psychics.
Here’s the paragraph you linked to. The fact that it describes a paper, but doesn’t say who wrote it, who published it, etc, makes it unfortunately insufficient. Is elsewhere on that site better?
Well, not necessarily. If they genuinely due work only when the stars are aligned and the performer is under certain kinds of stress, etc, then you would expect scattered anecdotal evidence, but nothing repeatable. The problem is that the fact that it could work isn’t enough, one does need to find some evidence before claiming that psi works.
Americans send loads of money every year to ‘Nigerian Bankers’ - who offer the victims a share in a large sum of money left in a bank account. All you have to do is give these ‘bankers’ your own account details…
Similarly the US Govenrment does spend money investigating amazing claims. This one didn’t work, so they abandoned it.
If you have know of experimental data that supports Remote Viewing, do publish it.
You said (my bolding) “I have found some interesting scientific papers and evidence here.”
I quoted these, from your source:
“We are developing and testing new theories and descriptions of physical reality including psi functioning.”
"Might it be that the core laws of quantum mechanics, like entropy and the second law of thermodynamics, really belong to a wider domain of nature than physics? "
These quotes are not evidence. They betray a hopeful attitude that this ‘Institute’ can make amazing scientific breakthroughs.
Incidentally, what makes this ‘Institute’ legitimate?
And would you pay money to learn dowsing from the British Dowsing Association?
Not so if the quote you gave previously is representative:
“We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest”
We did not show is not the same as we could not find – is your re-interpretation “not honest and straightforward”?
No, you have shown the way yourself. All we have to is find one person who performs a psychic power once.
Then we replicate the conditions. Wait for planetary re-alignment; recreate the stress; whatever it takes.
In any case, there are many psychics who claim they can always perform. Sadly none of them can do so under test conditions…
Perhaps we could ask Lekatt what exactly he means by his claim that all of us have paranormal powers. How does he know? How often do these powers manifest?
Yes, it occurred to me that perhaps the OP should have started this thing in IMHO.
Would you really? It might be out of place in this forum. I can answer to all of those phenomena, but only with my own personal spiritual beliefs not proven facts. I cannot cite personal spiritual beliefs. Still want to know? Just say so and I’ll give you my interpretation.
I tend to believe that science will eventually discover nonphysical realms where these phenomena make sense. It might take a thousand years, but I think it will happen. Quantum physics is already well on its way to proving the existence of consciousness what with the effect an observer has and all.
Performance anxiety, perhaps? Exactly what kind of “laboratory conditions” are we talking about? Cite? Actually, the Monroe Institute conducts research into remote viewing and out-of-body experiences. Dr. Robert Monroe himself, in his books, claims to have had some success. Participants would get into soundproof chambers and report actually leaving their bodies to explore the universe. In fact, they even explored the solar system looking for extraterrestrial life and found nothing. These people are not quacks.
I think whenever there is a subject like this where people disagree, there is a good reason to take the pro side and a good reason to take the con side. AFAIK nobody is claiming the existence of Invisible Purple Unicorns (whatever) because nobody has a good reason to believe that IPUs exist.
Agreed (especially since no evidence seems to be forthcoming).
Are you saying you have experience of all the above, or that you can explain how they work, or both?
Why do you believe this? What evidence do you have?
In the last hundred years, science has provided flight, split the atom, discovered drugs like penicillin, allowed us to visit the Moon, created the Internet and is well on the way to cracking our genetic code.
Why does it take so long to discover psychic powers?
See:
Dowsers have claimed the money and scored 100% when they knew where the target was, but dropped instantly to chance levels when the target was concealed.
Let me get this straight. You believe that people can send their consciousness millions of miles through space, simply because they tell you they can?
You know there is no extraterrestrial life in the solar system, just because they say so?
Do you not feel even the tiniest urge to check their statements?
How about they predict what a NASA probe will find?
How do you know they are not quacks?
Well you seem pretty confident that Invisible Purple Unicorns don’t exist. Suppose Dr. Robert Monroe himself told you they did. Would you believe him - just because he said so?
If there is a massive history of evidence, including successful predictions such as eclipses, on one side of an argument, and the other side consists of saying that something will turn up in the next thousand years, there is not a good reason to treat both sides equally.
I beg to differ, this sounds rather like the height of quackery. Nevermind exploring the solar system and asserting things about it that cannot be independently confirmed, if it is in fact so easy then these techniques should pass a controlled experiment where OBEs are used to describe items or events in a sealed off room. Most of us here are still waiting for something like this that can be independently repeated and verified.
And if all of us have “paranormal” powers, wouldn’t that make them just “normal” powers?
I’m not really what you are getting at here but successful predictions of eclipses are hardly evidence of supernatural powers. Most any society with a grasp of how the sun, stars and moon move in the sky has been able to prediict eclipses.
I agree in that I don’t think psychic powers exist. Many instances can be dubunked precisely as you describe - a psychic claims that it happens under such-and-such circumstances, is tested, and nothing is found.
But I don’t think ‘replicate the conditions’ is that easy. What if one in a hundred people reappears as a ghost for 10 minutes at a time determined by volcanic eruptions on Io? It’s a stupid example, but I’m there’ve been examples that obscure in physics, and until a Mendeleev or Einstein has come along and seen the pattern no-one’s been able to show anything. And if the occurances are rare enough they can (and only reasonably should) be put down to hyperactive imagination, etc.
Don’t you believe if they had found physical causes for NDEs they would have shown them. Give me a break!
Are they hiding the real research?
You lost, just admit it.
The words chosen for the report were used to lessen the impact of the study. Read the whole study. The good Doctor was evasive in other parts of it, in other words, He didn’t want to believe what the research showed, but had no choice.
More and more research is coming, and it will show the same thing. NDEs are not caused by a dying brain or body. They are proof of consciousness continuing to exist after the death of the body. Which in turn points to a spiritual world.
I’m saying I can explain how I think they work, which is what it sounded like Diogenes was asking in the first place. But yes, I have had experiences with some of those phenomena. Although I suspect the spoon bending trick is exactly that - a trick; as I sit here eating, I find it quite easy to bend my fork. If you’ve noticed, spoon-benders tend to rub the utensil which generates heat and might soften the metal somewhat.
No evidence. Just a hunch. Comes from growing up with both science and spirituality, when I developed the belief that the 2 might be merged someday. And I could turn around and ask why it took us 2500 years to develop spaceflight, since Greeks were gazing at the sky at least that long ago.
No, I believe that people can send their consciousness millions of miles through space as a logical extension of the observation that I myself have sent mine across the room. Granted, there is a difference between 10 feet and several million miles, but if consciousness can project any distance then why not a great distance?
As for the question of life in the solar system, IIRC these experiments were done at a time when a lot of people believed in Martians etc., and back then a quack would be likely to say “I went to Mars and saw little green men.” I should clarify that I don’t mean there is no other life whatsoever in the solar system (especially since alleged fossil microbes have been found on Mars, in adition to the possibility of life under Europa’s icy surface or in Jupiter’s cloud deck) just that they didn’t find any. Actually I would be happy if NASA discovers extraterrestrial life - anywhere.
If Dr. Monroe told me IPUs exist I would be highly doubtful. I don’t need to believe in IPUs and I will not believe in them without proof. Souls are a necessary part of my belief system and astral projection logically follows from my belief system; neither is the case for IPUs. Actually, there are phenomena that I am skeptical of - for instance, the whole “demonic possession” thing and its more modernized form which psychologists refer to as “spirit attachment”. If Dr. Monroe were to advocate a belief in spirit attachment, then I would put a lot less faith in what he has to say.
And I also don’t see what eclipses have to do with anything. I certainly do not disagree with the mainstream explanation of eclipses and how to predict when they will happen. :rolleyes: Of course our knowledge will advance in the next thousand years (assuming we don’t do anything stupid like blow ourselves up with nukes) but my stnace is not based strictly on the thousand years thing.
