Has any MODERN researcher claimed evidence for Psych-kinesis (the claimed ability for the mind to move materialobjects)? J.B Rhine claimed evidence, but his 1930’s era research is not taken seriously anymore. PK would be cool! You could destry Russian missile just by thinking about them!
Perhaps PK wouldn’t be so cool if terrorists starting blowing up US nuclear devices?!
But don’t worry - there is still no evidence for any psychic or paranormal effect.
What a shame, and we haven’t even started to talk about Veridical NDEs. Those are the ones being studied by the University of Virginia. They show more real evidence that life continues after death.
Love
Well, if someone would ever start a thread about NDEs and veridical NDEs, we could discuss them and be on topic. :smack:
Any more to add about how one can train oneself to develop psychic abilities?
So we agree on spoonbending.
1.) Speaking with the dead. In theory, if there is such a thing as telepathy (see below), then sure, communicating with spirits is not out of the question. However that does not mean that I take John Edward or James Van Praagh (sp.?) at face value.
2.) Reading minds (telepathy). I’ll spare you my anecdotes and say yes, I believe.
3.) Remote viewing. I’ve heard a lot about this matter but never attempted it myself. In theory, if one can project their consciousness then one can remote view.
4.) Predicting the future. I tend to think it can be done, but the future you see will change because of free will. Kinda like Back To The Future in reverse.
Hahaha. Santa Claus - the favorite argument of skeptics. I am an adult. Lots of adults believe in astral projection. Do any adults believe in Santa Claus?
The big library in Athens had a great many scrolls. And how many survive today? Is it not true that they were destroyed by crusaders who opposed such “heretical” ideas as leaving one’s body to travel to faraway places? And “heretical” ideas such as the Earth is round? Isn’t it true that the Greeks knew the Earth was round 1000 years before the Church taught that it was flat? I do not know what progress the paranormal has made in the last 2500 years, but how can we know when the record is so incomplete?
I probably could prove it. For instance, I could project myself into a volunteer’s living room then sketch whatever I see. It would require one person seeing me make the drawing and another to visit the living room in question, then they would corroborate with each other.
However, I have not yet learned to project at will. Very few people have. Especially with the anxiety of needing to “get it right” because it means a lot of money if I succeed. You’d be amazed how even the slightest distraction gets in the way.
Even so, it has been my intention lately to learn to project at will. If I was there already, I wouldn’t hesitate to apply. But it wouldn’t be my priority. I think you’ll find that among the people I refer to as new-age types (I don’t know, lekatt if you’ll agree with my usage of this term but it’s the only one I know of), spiritual growth, enlightenment, and love take priority over materialistic concerns. I want to see what, if anything, is out there for alien life. That would mean more to me than any amount of money.
Well, see, a NASA probe has all kinds of sensors and digital equipment on it. Sensors that can quantify what they detect - the exact temperature, the quantity in ppm of a specific gas, stuff like that. I am not aware of anybody who can measure such things so precisely either in or out of their bodies. In addition, a probe offers pretty pictures that not only have scientific value, but also make for good publicity. I dare you to find me a newspaper that would rather print a sketch than a photograph. And this is after the concerns about the accuracy of what the people see - sure, they themselves are certain of it because they were there and actually experienced it, but in order for their observations to be taken seriously in scientific journals their accuracy would first have to be verified.
Why do you need proof of IPUs, but not proof that I have a cat? You have not seen my cat. But you know cats exist because no doubt you’ve seen one, and you know some people keep them as pets. I know OBEs exist because I’ve had a few (spontaneous) ones. So by extension I do not dismiss Dr. Monroe’s claim on the grounds of it being ridiculous.
No I do not take it personally. As I said before, we don’t have to agree. I could demonstrate my abilities if you so desire, but it might take a while.
Not sure I follow you, but a quick consultation of the dictionary makes it clear anyway. This is the forum for submitting evidence of a spiritual or religious belief, whereupon others may examine the credibility of the evidence. Gotcha. When I have proof of astral projection, I’ll be sure to post it in this forum.
Mind telling us what exactly the evidence is solidly in support of?
I have nothing on topic to contribute at the moment, and anyway the debate is too quick for me to keep up with because of how little time I have online.
I’ve been busy.
As I’ve said many times before, psychic abilities are possibly only through the Actualization of the MetaConscious Mind. There is, as yet, no reliable method for Actualizing the MCM.
Once Actualized, training can both help an individual control their MCM and increase its efficacy. There are a score of techniques used in such training. Some use the same exercises, but have wildly different explanations as to how and why they work. Some techniques follow completely opposite courses as well as philosophies.
But without Actualization, training is useless.
Um, no. Regardless of who did actually destroy the Library, it was gone several centuries before any crusaders came along.
Certainly some ancient Greeks knew that the Earth was round. Possibly even a majority of them.
Otherwise, again no. In the Christian tradition only a few, relatively minor, clerics ever seem to have taught it was flat. If nothing else, you’re overlooking a major continuity between antiquity and Christian thought.
I don’t agree with his entire argument, but the standard reference for this latter issue is Jeffery Burton Russell’s Inventing the Flat Earth (1991).
I had a neighbor that was psycho, he scared the heck out of me.
But I think he was born that way, don’t remember any sort of “training” or anything.
I would if it made me a million dollars.
<snip>
I’m still trying to figure out why finding out that something isn’t, is any kind of definitive proof whatsoever of what it is. That’s like saying that we found out the universe wasn’t created by a certain molecule, so good news, God must have done it.
There is no solid proof of what it is.
Now RaftPeople, behave.
Maybe your bank account is so full a cool $mil wouldn’t make much difference. But mine isn’t. If I thought I had a good chance to pick up some pocket change of this magnitude, I assure you it would be MY highest priority.
So c’mon – put up or shut up. Set aside some quality time, refine your abilities, win the money, and if you don’t need it, give it to the poor. Until you do, your claims are so much hot air, and not worth any more than my claim that I have an IPU to exercise.
I’m waiting. But not holding my breath.
Exactly. You ridicule adult belief in the jolly gentleman – why? Could it be because such belief is without good evidence? The same lack of good evidence for astral projection?
I think you’ve answered your own question. The possibility of your having a cat IS NOT a fantastic claim, because[ul][li]cats do exist, andpeople do have them as pets.[/ul] A claim of a garage-based IPU IS a fantastic claim because solid proof of the very existence of the animal is hard to come by. [/li]
Everyone’s Bullshit Detector needs calibration from time to time. When presented with a claim, ask: How reasonable is this on a scale from (extremely likely) to (extremely unlikely)? Furthermore, if presented with proof of something, ask: How good is the evidence on a scale from strong to weak?
Sure, it certainly helps with gambling bets.
Yes, it can be done as a trick by a competent magician. Therefore there is no reason to believe in a paranormal power.
It’s interesting to compare our belief systems.
You believe in telepathy because of anecdotes.
If telepathy is true, you think speaking with the dead is possible.
You say you can project your mind, so remote viewing is possible.
And predicting the future could be done, but there is no evidence (I assume you’re not counting a Hollywood film!)
I believe in an invisible permanent force that all masses project to some extent (gravity). This is based on scientific tests and predictions (like eclipses).
I believe that when I press a button or two, a metal box in my computer room can make a telephone call which then puts me in contact with millions of people worldwide (the Internet). This is based (in part) on our current conversation.
I believe that there is life elsewhere in the Universe (life exists on one planet; there are billions of observed planets; therefore a strong mathematical case for alien life - but not UFO’s!)
Note that my beliefs are based on reproducible evidence and successful predictions.
Yours are based on personal anecdotes in one area.
I personally need more than just anecdotes.
Well it’s a good parallel. I believed in Santa Claus as a child. Now I don’t, because there is no evidence. Many adults believe in crop circles, dowsing, Nigerian Bankers offering them millions of dollars and that they can beat Las Vegas Casinos. Simple numbers of believers without any supporting evidence registers as gullibility to me.
I’ve had this sort of conversation a lot of times. A polite intelligent chap (like yourself ) says he knows something that would revolutionise science and change the way we think forever.
I ask him what he can do.
He tells me (e.g. that he can dowse for water or project his mind 10 feet).
I offer him (by proxy) $1,000,000 to do it once under test conditions.
He immediately says things like:
- actually it doesn’t work that often
- he can’t do it under the pressure of testing
- money means nothing to him
- love is all we need
- his craft is sacred, and money would soil it
- I am not a true believer
- the World is not ready for such knowledge
- the reward money doesn’t exist
- he’s too busy with important work
So can I ask you again:
- what paranormal powers do you have?
- how often do they work?
- have you ever done a test? (even with a friend)
- could you find a use for $1,000,000?
- do you understand how important this is?
-
You demonstrate a paranormal power and I will give up my job and become your publicity agent. I promise you will be bigger than The Lord of the Rings / Britney Spears / the Superbowl / the Bush Administration combined. I will get you on the front page of Time, Newsweek, and every newspaper in the World. I will get you on Oprah, Letterman and any other talkshow you want. I will make us both richer than Bill Gates. :eek:
When do we start? -
It is true that the accuracy of your claims would have to be verified.
Ah well, back to the day job.
Anytime you’re ready. (The money is in the bank)
I said essentially the same thing elsewhere on the boards recently.
…so, get to the back of the queue, the money’s all mine, all mine, ALL MINE. Buwahahahaha!
Way to take my words out of context! The whole purpose of mentioning the film was as an analogy. In the film, the lead charater goes back in time and changes things. In predicting the future, one would see what direction the world is headed in already. A psychic might predict that a particular building is going to be around 100 years from now, but if tomorrow the building’s owner suddenly decides to tear it down, the prediction is moot.
Whoa - wait a minute - stop right there. Tell me what UFOs have to do with extraterrestrials. Why do so many people seem to confuse unidentified flying object with extraterrestrial spacecraft? An unidentified flying object is an object that is both flying and unidentified. Were an object to be positively identified as an extraterrestrial spacecraft, it would no longer be a UFO.
1.) Crop circles. Assuming they’re faked, how does one go about trampling and scorching the crops without leaving a path to/from the crop circle? Alien or otherwise, I’d really like to know how that is done.
2.) Dowsing. Not sure on the theory involved here. At least with telepathy I could see if something as-yet undiscovered is being transmitted, or if on the (metaphorically) highest level we are all united. But I fail to see what effect water or any other deposit will have on a pair of sticks or wires.
3.) Oh yes, the Nigerian banker scam. Very very paranormal. One wonders how they manage to get the message to magically appear in your computer. :rolleyes:
4.) Beating Las Vegas casinos. Well in theory it could be possible to tilt the odds in one’s favor. I have read some ideas that seem plausible to me. But I’ve never tried them.
Thank you!
That’s becausese it really honestly doesn’t happen that often.
The pressure of testing induces a stress that becomes a distraction and adds difficulty. If you’re talking about astral projection, it could still be done while asleep, since the sleeping mind is cleared and not distracted, but in that case the subject would simply dream of succeeding and the motivation would dissolve.
It doesn’t mean nothing to me.
- Astral projection, and also I can remember before I was born.
- It is very hard to project while awake. Not impossible, but I have yet to learn to do so. It’s like trying to lift weights with your toes.
- I do not recall doing any test.
- Absolutely!
- Absolutely.
No way. Last thing I want to see is my name splattered all over everything. I do not want to be offered interviews with Time or Newsweek. I do not want to be followed around by paparazzi (sp.?) and featured on Inside Tonight. I do not watch Oprah or Letterman. A lot of people hate Bill Gates. If you’re seeking fame, count me out.
Pleasure doing business with you. 
Sorry, gotta go… not enough time to fix the typos and poorly worded sentences.
So you won’t share your earth-altering knowledge and mind-blowing skills with us because you might become too famous?
Luckily for the rest of the world, that didn’t bother Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, Brahe, Kepler, Leeuwenhoek, Boyle, Mendel, Lavoisier, Watt, Fulton, Maxwell, Marconi, Morse, Tesla, Pasteur, Fleming, Wright, Wright, Edison, Einstein, Burbank, Salk, Sabin…
> Set aside some quality time, refine your abilities, win the money
Unfortunately, there is a second side to that coin. Certainly Randi doesn’t want to just give away $1M, so he’s going to make the tests almost impossible to beat, based on what he’s been exposed to so far.
So, if he’s seen most people do 50%, but seen a few people achieve 60% at some particular psychic task, he’s going to insist on 80% or 90% as proof to win the $1M.
Also, if you read his fine print, he also gains the rights to write about and publicize your ability. He gains nearly complete control over you. Obviously he’s not altrusitc about discovering psychic powers.
So, if I actually had the ability to do something psychic and amazing, I might be fairly reluctant to give up my rights for just $1M.
In any case, I think it should be obvious by now that no one actually has the ability to bend spoons, levitate, dowse, or dozens of other show-stopping acts. If anyone did, they’d certainly have proven it in controlled circumstances and become huge celebrities by now.
However, I am open minded. It seems like it could be possible that some people have minor psychic abilities that are not spectacular and could not be repeated on demand.
Like when some people seem luckier than others. Maybe it’s true and maybe not. Or maybe that person is just 2% luckier than normal. You can’t really sit that person down in a laboratory and make them play dice all day and be able to quantify anything significant.
So, perhaps psychic abilities aren’t 100%, maybe they are just “an increased liklihood”. If someone could correctly guess the shape on a hidden card 100% of the time, we’d have heard about it by now. But, if they could guess it right 2% better than anyone else, it would be mathematically insignificant. The ability would still exist, however, and the person may not even realize they have such an ability.
Unfortunately, it seems that such minor abilities would be virtually useless for winning the lottery or exploding incoming missles.
So, to sum up my opinion, I have not seen any demonstrations that have convinced me that anyone actually has significant and showy psychic abilities. But, I keep open the possibility that low-level, and minor abilities might exist.
(New guy disclaimer: I do not believe AND I do not disbelieve re: RV)
I have a friend who was an officer involved in the army’s remote viewing program. Regarding the original question and based on discussions with my friend, they (the army guys actually doing the “research”, not the CIA, DIA or army leadership) believed it is a limited inherent human capability akin to spatial (occasionally temporal) clairvoyance, achievable via their army RV protocol. Kind of an ability to tune into an information plane not available to the conscious senses. They believed that, like the ability to play vs. make noise with a violin, some individuals have a talent or natural capacity (hence greater potential ability). They also believed that it CAN also be trained and developed to an extent (again - their beliefs, not mine!), even in those with little talent.
The army’s research was based on protocols that required the “viewer” to not know what he/she is looking at (there’s more to it that that, but you can do the search). As I recall the DIA declassified a portion of the research not related to intelligence after a contracted research institute wrote the project off.
I think it’s fair to note that my friend and his peers were interested in (and acutely aware of) the limitations of RV (I don’t think THEY doubted they were seeing SOMETHING). As he described it, this is not picking lottery numbers or reading enemy paperwork; dealt more with sensory impressions, gestalt sort of stuff. I know that doesn’t do much for the skeptics!
caligynephobia
Sure, Randi is careful that the tests are such that they’re almost impossible to pass by chance alone. However, he’s also careful to ensure that the applicant clearly state that they expect to pass the test.
How high Randi has set the hurdle is irrelevant if applicants think they can jump that high and then fall short. After all, it’s intended to be nothing more than a test of whether the applicant can actually do something they say they can.
The actual relevant clause from the Challenge is
This is granting the JREF certain rights. The main necessity for the clause is surely to help prevent unsuccessful applicants from trying to restrict use of the evidence of their failure. I don’t see that it in any way would restrict a successful applicant from exploiting their success. For the clause says nothing about what the applicant may do with such data, only what the JREF may do.
Flash-57 is therefore suggesting the odd image of the hypothetical successful psychic complaining that Randi’s been unauthorisedly promoting their powers by appearing on Larry King and showing clips of the test being triumphantly passed.
Yes, I knew the film mention was just an analogy.
What do you mean by your psychic example? That particular psychic apparently has no talent.
Because many people believe that UFO’s are alien spaceships. The fact there is zero evidence of this doesn’t affect their belief - just like paranormal believers.
You mentioned that many people believe in astral projection as if this meant something.
The above examples are simply examples of mass belief when there is no evidence to back it up (just like astral projection). There is nothing paranormal about the Nigerians - but large numbers of people think it works.
Here is how to make a crop circle:
http://www.circlemakers.org/guide.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life/aliens/cropcircles/human.shtml
Dowsing has never passed any test. Why are there dowsing societies?!
Why do people lose millions of dollars annually to Nigerian swindlers? Because they have a gullible belief (just like paranormal believers).
Why do you think it is possible to tilt the Vegas odds in your favour? What is your evidence? (I know about card counting on blackjack, but so do the casinos.)
How often does it happen?
So you can’t do it while awake, nor while asleep?
I’m sure you genuinely believe in this power, but look at what you’re saying.
You claim an amazing power, but if we ask to see it in action, the pressure is too great. Even a reward of $1,000,000 is not enough to help.
How do you know you have this power?
So you have never astrally projected while awake?
I repeat, how do you know you have any paranormal power?
OK, we’ll go to the other extreme. I will keep your name completely confidential. No-one will ever know who you are.
But just demonstrate your power once.
Or is that asking too much?
Oh and congratulations on a new excuse for not demonstrating your amazing claim:
“I cannot astrally project because … a lot of people hate Bill Gates.”
Since it now seems incredibly difficult for you to astrally project, why do you believe the Boundary Institute can do it almost at will?