# Can you devise a district drawing rule that would eliminate gerrymandering?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 2, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667 "2013-04-02T21:31:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/21 "2013-04-03T00:44:12Z")
My proposal: Maps are rated based on the total length of the boundaries of the districts. Boundaries that lie on navigable bodies of water don’t count, and boundaries that follow county lines count for half. Every member of the legislature gets to propose one map, and the one with the lowest total score wins. Sure, you can try to gerrymander, but that will just guarantee that someone on the other side can undercut you.
It’s sort of like the old trick where one child decides where to cut the cake, and the other decides which half to take.
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### Author:  [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/22 "2013-04-03T01:02:36Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#):
>
> I was thinking of a formula that removes all political and human intervention.
What about a grid?
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/23 "2013-04-03T01:29:09Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> I have no clue how practical it is, but it is pretty simple to feed a computer a program with some basic guidelines - total population, population density, wealth, race, religion, whatever, and have it generate N districts that fit your criteria, which may include keeping districts reasonably compact (no splitting Austin, TX into 4 districts, one of which extends to Mexico and another to Houston, for example) and maintains some kind of overall diversity guidelines.
>
> After that, give a bipartisan committee of equal numbers of both parties (include 3rd parties if they meet some kind of population cutoff) a straight up or down vote. Everybody agrees to it or the program is seeded again to generate a new map. It’s important this committee only gets a yes/no vote and no power to individually change the district map in any way.
>
> Of course, that means everybody has to agree with the initial criteria and has to sign off, which may be a problem.
>
> I still see value in keeping representation local, rather than self-selecting. Some issues are still local. For example, Houston is big on NASA. I can see that being a big issue for locals but not so much for the rest of the Texas. That’s what Senators should be for, anyway.
Or if you want to throw away all laws like minority districts and such and just do a pure evenly divided numbers game you can just use something like the [shortest split line](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUS9uvYyn3A). (Though obviously any algorithm will have its biases, picking the shortest line will probably make tighter groups which I suspect will skew it towards more urban and thus democratic districts. You could revise the algorithm to just randomly pick any line that satisfies the criteria instead of always picking the shortest line).
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/24 "2013-04-03T01:37:13Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> You could revise the algorithm to just randomly pick any line that satisfies the criteria instead of always picking the shortest line.
Er… no you couldn’t, I’m dumb. There are standard optimization algorithms for picking minimum distance lines, the set of all possible lines is potentially (and usually) infinite. Still, you could probably rig something that chose from a _few_ random lines.
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/25 "2013-04-03T01:56:10Z")
It’s a laudable and worthy goal to attempt, but any result will be a compromise.
There’s not even a single, objective, and fair from all viewpoints way to hold an election. I’ll find a cite for that or explain it if anyone’s interested, but I’ll have to remember which book.
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### Author:  [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/26 "2013-04-03T02:13:15Z")
> [@Learjeff](#):
>
> There’s not even a single, objective, and fair from all viewpoints way to hold an election. I’ll find a cite for that or explain it if anyone’s interested, but I’ll have to remember which book.
[Arrow’s impossibility theorem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem). Also relevant may be the various [apportionment paradoxes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_paradox). I don’t know of an impossibility theorem for redistricting but, given these other results, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone came up with a set of reasonable fairness criteria for redistricting that are impossible to meet simultaneously.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/27 "2013-04-03T02:26:28Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#):
>
> I was thinking of a formula that removes all political and human intervention.
So Kang and Kodos create the formula?
Every formula has values implicit or explicit in it. Someone has to make the decision about what values should be included in the formula.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/28 "2013-04-03T03:03:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> How about virtual districts with self-selected populations?
How would you control the size of each “virtual district” to make sure they are roughly the same size?
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### Author:  [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/29 "2013-04-03T03:09:43Z")
Here in Australia we mandate that electorates cannot differ in population by more than, IIRC, 10%. And it is disinterested public servants that make the boundary decisions, based on census data. Political parties can make submissions to the process, but do not determine or control it.
The silly part here is that an electorate is supposed to have an undefined something called a “community of interest”, which is to say you can’t lump (say) a very poor and a very rich district into the one electorate. But somehow you can have a (left-leaning) mining town and a (right-leaning) grazing district together.
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/30 "2013-04-03T03:14:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> My proposal: Maps are rated based on the total length of the boundaries of the districts. Boundaries that lie on navigable bodies of water don’t count, and boundaries that follow county lines count for half. Every member of the legislature gets to propose one map, and the one with the lowest total score wins.
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> Or if you want to throw away all laws like minority districts and such and just do a pure evenly divided numbers game you can just use something like the [shortest split line](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUS9uvYyn3A). …
I like both of these ideas, but I think some kind of combination is better.
With **Chronos** proposal, I don’t see why only members of the legislature should be able to propose a map: any member of the public should be able to propose a map, as long as it is in the right format to specify it completely and to test the boundary lengths with a computer program.
With **Jragon** ’s idea, one problem is that the shortest curve dividing a territory into half may not be a straight line.
For example, if you have a state that needs to be divided into two districts which is a rectangle, longer in the east-west direction, with a metropolitan area in the centre containing half the population, and the rest of the population evenly spread across the state, then the shortest line will be a north-south line dividing the state and the metro area in half. However, the shortest curve would be the boundary of the metro area. So **Chronos** would give you a metro/rural split between the two districts, while **Jragon** would give to an east/west split between the two districts. (It’s obviously a matter of opinion, but I think the metro/rural split is fairer.)
Conversely, if the metro area containing half the population is in one corner (a bit like Illinois or New York State), both ideas would give a similar metro/rural split.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/31 "2013-04-03T03:25:35Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#):
>
> . . . Here is the best I can come up with: All districts would be equally portioned on a strict North/South basis with no exceptions. . . .
I like this one. A variant on it, in California, would be bands measuring inland from the ocean. A narrow stripe right at the beach, running all the way from Oregon to Mexico; another narrow stripe just inland from that; another narrow stripe; etc.
Mere geometrical convexity would negate a lot of the worst abuses.
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### Author:  [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/32 "2013-04-03T03:50:28Z")
What about:
No county may be divided, except along the boundaries of preexisting civil divisions,\* or by a line running north-south or east-west.
\*townships, boroughs, or New England towns—not municipalities
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### Author:  [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/33 "2013-04-03T08:12:19Z")
All boundaries must be straight lines except those formed by natural boundaries - rivers, cliffs open spaces/parks
.
No district may have more than 6 sides
That would knock the worst of them down.
Then require divisions to follow single streets/roads if less than x feet / % of some mathematical formula.
One thing I’ve never heard of, for cities:
Cities grow through the process of additions and sub-divisions (yes, the term has an actual surveyor’s origin). These are typically large chunks of land on which someone has drawn lines and, often, built houses. As you go through a town, you can see the lines where Farmer John decided that 3/2’s were more profitable than soybeans, so he chopped up the south 40 into lots, put in some roads, etc and asked the city if they like the tax base. That is an addition - what everybody calls a “subdivision”. An actual sub-division is the field being annexed to the city as a single plot and the lot lines, utilities, roads were added. You can have a subdivision that looks like a corn field - if the lots are recorded, they exist - development is not required.
OK - these might be good ways to draw lines - they tend to grow similar demographics.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/34 "2013-04-03T14:19:43Z")
> [@](#):
>
> With Chronos proposal, I don’t see why only members of the legislature should be able to propose a map: any member of the public should be able to propose a map, as long as it is in the right format to specify it completely and to test the boundary lengths with a computer program.
That’s mainly a matter of practicality. In practice, though, I would expect that members of the public would come up with plans and submit them to like-minded legislators, who would then use those public-submitted plans to guide their own choice of submission.
Remember, by the way, that any plan must give each district roughly the same population (I think the Supreme Court has ruled on just how large a deviation is allowed). A simple regular grid would certainly not meet this requirement in any real state, and a requirement like not splitting counties, or limiting the number of straight-line sides, might (depending on the state) make it impossible.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/35 "2013-04-03T14:43:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> The problem is that people aren’t binary. If all you had were two groups, you could divide them easily. But you have a voter who’s a rich rural college-educated Black Catholic straight female liberal - which district do you put her in?
>
> That’s why I suggested my system. It lets people self-identify what group they feel they most belong in.
This plan is just ultimate gerrymandering where the divisions don’t need contiguous areas at all. It would guarantee that sizable political groups are guaranteed locked in seats in congress with no competition.
There is no way to divide up states into congressional districts that serve the intended purpose, representing communities with a common public interest. One reason is the enormous size of a modern congressional district averaging over 700,000 people. The obvious solution is to increase the size of congress by an order of magnitude. There’s no reason not to in the modern world. There is no purpose to having congress meet in one location anymore.
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/36 "2013-04-03T14:57:08Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#):
>
> Eliminate districts. Everyone in the country who is eligible to vote votes for every single office being filled. Problem solved.
This eliminates the problem of gerrymandering and replaces it with the problem of minorities being underrepresented, and also that localities are not represented at all.
The problem of localities not being represented is also a likely (but not necessary) outcome of **virtual districts**. Still, I think virtual districts is an interesting idea and I’d be very interested to see how it would play out. How would VDs tend to define themselves? Who can start a VDs? Is the number of VD’s limited, or can we have any number? How do we ensure that every VD has the same number of voters?
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/37 "2013-04-03T16:58:58Z")
Make every district size equal the total land area divided by the number of representatives they have, in a square area with equal length and width, and then drawn starting from the most northwest point of the state to the most southeast point of the state. Some districts will have a lot of people. Some won’t. It may not be especially fair to the people in the state, but it is fair politically
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### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/38 "2013-04-03T17:06:38Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> It may not be especially fair to the people in the state, but it is fair politically
How is this fair politically? Rural areas and suburbs trend Republican and cities trend Democrat. It also violates the basic idea of representation in the House, which is based on population.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/39 "2013-04-03T17:08:24Z")
Sure. Devise a program to draw districts that are as equal in population as possible, and randomly select one if there is more than one valid projection.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-devise-a-district-drawing-rule-that-would-eliminate-gerrymandering/654667/40 "2013-04-03T17:21:49Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> How is this fair politically? Rural areas and suburbs trend Republican and cities trend Democrat. It also violates the basic idea of representation in the House, which is based on population.
Fair politically in that it standardizes the districts mathematically in what could be said to be a non-partisan way. I think districts should be square-ish, there’s no bias in that. People who object to that always object because they feel misrepresented, but as a standard polygon set to the proportion of the state’s land area and the amount of representatives, I can’t think of how its unfair. Even as a Democrat, I’d support this, as it takes the human bias out of it. I am generally for a concept if I think its fair, even though it may not be beneficial to my side
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