# Can you do better than 7th graders? Try these questions

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892>\
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\
**Created:** [July 10, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892 "2001-07-10T00:49:20Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 12\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/21 "2001-07-10T22:16:14Z")

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OK, please can we have the guideline answers!

I’d really appreciate the information **now** because:

1. Threads come and go
2. I’m a teacher
3. My ape heritage makes me curious
4. I want to see who got the 3rd point on the second question

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**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/22 "2001-07-11T04:58:49Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by racinchikki \*  
> \*\*1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> 1. a. A dictionary contains definitions. A thesaurus contains only synonyms, and occasionally antonyms.  
> b. There are more entries in a dictionary, because there are words in a dictionary that do not have synonyms.  
> c. A dictionary can show you how to say and use a word. A thesaurus just gives you the word.  
> d. Dictionary starts with a D. Thesaurus starts with a T. \*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get 2 points out of 4. B and D are not valid; B isn’t because the first part is irrelevant, and the second is repeated from A, and D should be obviously wrong.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by glee \* \*\*
> 
> The Mississipi river travels north to south, but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> (I have seen River Thames used in UK newspapers. I would say Georgia State if discussing say a University).
> 
> a) A dictionary defines meanings; a thesaurus gives alternative choices of words with similar meanings.  
> b) A dictionary is in alphabetical order; a thesaurus is first divided into categories  
> c) You need to know the word you want to look up in a dictionary; you don’t know the word you want to find in a thesaurus  
> d) A dictionary is for accuracy; a thesaurus is for style \*\*

1. You get 1 point out of 2. River is supposed to be capitalized.

2. You get 2 points out of 4. A and B are acceptable, C and D are too vague, at least by the guidelines for grading this question.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \*  
> \*\*
> 
> 1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> 2. a. A dictionary explains the meaning of individual words. A thesaurus gives you others words to use instead of the word you looked up, which often doesn’t constitute much of an explanation.
> 
> b. A thesaurus will not provide a pronunciation guide, whereas the dictionary generallly will.
> 
> c. A thesaurus will not provide an etymology explaining the origins of the word, but a dictionary generally will.
> 
> d. A thesaurus will generally consist of a subset of our vocabulary, of words of a moderate complexity and their synonyms, whereas a dictionary will generally include a much wider variety of words, including very simply words such as conjunctions and pronouns that you would not find in a thesaurus.
> 
> \*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get 3 points out of 4. D is not considered a valid reason.

[QUOTE]  
\*Originally posted by iampunha \*  
\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the State of Georgia.
> 
> 1. A dictionary gives you a definition; a thesaurus gives similar words.
> 2. Roget is not known for a dictionary and Oxford not for its thesaurus.
> 3. A thesaurus will not tell you how to pronounce something.
> 4. A dictionary is longer. \*\*

1. You get 1 point out of 2. State should not be in caps.
2. You get 2 points out of 4, the first and third differences are the valid ones.

[QUOTE]  
\*Originally posted by Little Bird \*  
\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> 1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> 2. What are 4 differences between a dictionary and a thesaurus? Explain your answer.  
> Dictionary defines, thesaurus presents synonyms.  
> Dictionary presents etymology, thesaurus does not.  
> Dictionary has pronunciation, thesaurus does not.  
> Dictionary rhymes with canary, whereas thesaurus rhymes with brontosaurus\*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get 3 points out of 4. The last difference is, of course, not valid.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by snac \*  
> \*\*I live in the city of Poughkeepsie (that is, the city that is called Poughkeepsie), but the woman down the block is mayor of the City of Poughkeepsie (that is, a governmental unit). The City of Poughkeepsie offers limited bus service, but some long-distance buses travel through the city of Poughkeepsie. Ah, but they could also travel through the City of Poughkeepsie, if we wish to emphasize the governmental unit for some reason (“I can’t take that bus; it goes through the City of Poughkeepsie, where I am a wanted man”). To capitalize indicates a governmental “official” use of the word.
> 
> So both “State” and “state” in your first question _could_ be accurate, depending on exactly what shade of meaning you would wish to convey. To write
> 
> ```
> ...the State of Georgia
> 
> ```
> 
> emphasizes that the river passes through a political zone, which you might want to specify if the context involves, oh, states which tax river-transported goods, or if the State of Georgia lays claim to all the water in all its rivers. As in, “…but not through the State of Georgia. Which is just as well, because Georgia recently passed a law requiring factories to discharge their untreated waste directly into its rivers.”  
> On the other hand, writing  
> …the state of Georgia  
> emphasizes the geographic location. It says simply that the river does not flow through the particular geographic region we call Georgia. Based on the sentence, that seems more likely to be the meaning. Still, more likely doesn’t mean certainly…  
> \*\*

1. You get a 0 out of 4 points. Temporalizing isn’t worth points, even if making a valid statement, and in this case I’m not sure it’s even that.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by JadedNaive \*  
> \*\*1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> 1. a. A dictionary explains the meaning of a word, whereas a thesaurus lists synonyms.  
> b. A thesaurus does not list part of speech, but a dictionary does.  
> c. A dictionary often lists abnormal pluralizations and conjugations, and a thesaurus does not.  
> d. A dictionary tries to include all commonly used words in a language, and a thesaurus is mostly limited to nouns, verbs, and adjectives that have several synonyms. \*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get at least 2 points out of 4, possibly 3. One would have to check with the supervisor on his/her opinion of c’s validity before awarding a point for it, because it isn’t included in the scoring guide as an example of a correct response. D is not acceptable because only certain dictionaries contain “all commonly used words;” Student dictionaries often do not.

[QUOTE]  
\*Originally posted by Tenar \*  
\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\* The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the State of Georgia.
> 
> (Mmmmm. State or state? I think I’m wrong on this one, but I feel compelled to capitalize State in this instance to differentiate between the geographic state and a state of being.)
> 
> 1. A dictionary contains definitions, a thesaurus contains  
> alternate word choices.
> 2. A thesaurus does not include pronunciation guidance, a  
> dictionary does.
> 3. A thesaurus does not include etymology, a dictionary  
> does.
> 4. A dictionary is intended to include all words in usage,  
> a thesaurus includes nouns, verbs, adjectives and ad-  
> verbs which have synonyms.  
> (5. To use a dictionary, you have to know the word that you  
> are looking for. To use a thesaurus, you do not.)  
> Yes, I _am_ weasling by putting in five answers instead of four. I fully expect to be disqualified!
> 
> As for which part of the first question the kids got wrong, I’m going to guess that they capitalized North and South. \*\*

\*\*

1. You get 1 point out of 2. Which “state” it is has no bearing on its capitalization, much like right and right in “I’m right, it’s the 4th house on the right.”

2. You get 3 points out of 4. The first three are valid, I explained above why 4 isn’t, and 5 is too vague to the point of being invalid if taken literally. BTW, a student is allowed to give more than 4 answer without being marked down, though in this case it doesn’t help.

You are correct. 80% of kids did capitalize north and south, though for what reason we are not sure; all we can think of is that the state in which this question was given is in the deep south…

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ENugent \*  
> \*\*“The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.” I’m guessing the biggest error was failure to capitalize “river.”
> 
> 1. A dictionary contains definitions, while a thesaurus contains synonyms and sometimes antonyms.
> 2. A dictionary is useful when you know a word; a thesaurus is useful when you do not know a word.
> 3. A dictionary is organized alphabetically while a thesaurus often is not.
> 4. A thesaurus usually has an index and a dictionary does not. \*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get 2 points out of 4. Two is vague, and four is not true- we checked Rogets because it is the most popular and it has one.

[QUOTE]  
\*Originally posted by Paul The Younger \*  
\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*
> 
> 1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> 
> 2. A dictionary is used to define a word, give it’s proper usage, proper pronunciation, and etymology; whereas a thesaurus gives you synonyms and antonyms for a word.  
> \*\*

\*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get one point of of 4, because you only give one quality of a thesaurus.

[QUOTE]  
\*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \*  
\*\*  
1.The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.  
\*\*

1. What are 4 differences between a dictionary and a thesaurus? Explain your answer. [list]\*  
[li]A dictionary has definitions and also etymological origins for each word and word type.[/li][li]A thesaurus contains words and their synonyms, along with what type of word it is, such as a noun, verb, etc.[/li][li]Antonyms for a word are not found in a dictionary listed under the specific word.[/li][li]Dictionaries generally include pictorial examples of some of the definitions, whereas thesauruses don’t.\* \*\*[/li][/QUOTE]

2. You get 2 points out of 2.

3. You get 1 point of out 4. The first two are considered one difference, as are the second, but the second half of the second pair is not valid because many (usually inexpensive) dictionaries do not contain pictures.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by panamajack
> 
> * * *
> 
> The Mississippi River travels from north to south, but not through the state of Georgia.  
> The only obvious distinction is trivial, that of the words themselves (they’re spelled differently, one’s Greek & the other’s Latin, different number of syllables, etc.)
> 
> There’s also the trivial distinction of who’s known for publishing either, like Webster’s Dictionary or Roget’s Thesaurus.
> 
> Most dictionaries are arranged alphabetically; most thesauri are arranged topically, with perhaps an alphabetical index of keywords.
> 
> Many thesauri contain antonyms of words as well as synonyms, which most dictionaries do not, although many dictionaries do contain synonyms.
> 
> Most dictionaries contain an entry for every word in them, most thesauri are not as comprehensive.
> 
> What many people think of immediately upon hearing the word dictionary contains definitions, etymology, etc. of the words in them, which almost no thesauri contain. However, there are at least as many dictionaries that contain no definitions (foreign language dictionaries, for example).

\*\*

1. You get 2 points out of 2.
2. You get 3 points out of 4. The first two are trivial and not considered to be responding to the question correctly. And the 4th is not generally true about dictionaries.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sengkelat
> 
> * * *
> 
> I want to change my answer…
> 
> A dictionary maps words to concepts.  
> A thesaurus maps concepts to words.

\*\*

a. A student can’t change his or her answer, so neither can you.  
b. Even if you _were_ allowed to change your answer you would still have the same score, because your answer doesn’t mean anything.

* * *

Now, for the guidelines for 2…the guidelines are the reason we recommended in no uncertain terms that this question be burned at the stake.

1. No where in the scoring rubric is “difference” defined. To make matters worse, their sample of an acceptable answer doesn’t even answer the question! All the sample did was to list four qualities of a dictionary, and four of a thesaurus- no compare or contrast (differences) mentioned whatsoever. Our supervisor’s supervisor finally decided that they must mean that for each score point one must say something about a dictionary \*\* and \*\* a thesaurus. While this is the only logical interpretation of what we were given it is a terrible way to grade because an answer like this: “Dictionaries give definitions; dictionaries give parts of speech; dictionaries give pronunciation; thesaurus gives alternate word choices for your original word” gets a single point, whereas “Dictionaries give definitions and thesaurus don’t; Dictionaries give parts of speech and thesaurus don’t; Dictionaries give pronunciation and thesaurus don’t; thesaurus gives alternate word choices for your original word, and dictionaries don’t” gets four points for making four comparisons!

We hope that the developer is embarrassed by our politely outraged evaluation of this terribly flawed question. I suspect the developer is the same genius who created a guideline, for a question in which students were asked to rewrite four sentences in the correct order, said that in order to receive half credit they must only have 1 sentence in the wrong order: this is not possible, there has to be 2 sentences out of order since, like physics suggests about objects, 2 sentences can’t occupy the same slot.

If the Gods be kind, no child will ever have this question for credit.

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**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/23 "2001-07-11T17:35:56Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by Sengkelat
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > I want to change my answer…
> > 
> > A dictionary maps words to concepts.  
> > A thesaurus maps concepts to words.
> 
> \*\*  
> a. A student can’t change his or her answer, so neither can you.\*\*

I’m aware that students can’t change their answer after they hand in their test. If you want to apply that to my postings, fine. That means my initial answer should be the one that counts. But you didn’t bother to score it. Is that the rule that was applied to students? That if they ask to change their answer, they’re told “You can’t change your answer, and by asking to do so you automatically fail.”? Sheesh.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*b. Even if you _were_ allowed to change your answer you would still have the same score, because your answer doesn’t mean anything. \*\*

My answer doesn’t mean anything? WTF? If you want to tell me it’s wrong, and tell me why, I’m all ears. But you’re saying it _doesn’t mean anything?_ That’s just plain offensive.

BTW, you told **Mirrored Indigo Shadows** that dictionaries don’t always have pictures, so that difference was wrong, but later said that dictionaries having pronunciation was right. But dictionaries don’t always have pronunciation. I have a Merriam Webster edition that has no pronunciation guide, and it’s a normal, large, and widely selling dictionary. So that answer is only usually right, just as Mirrored Indigo Shadows’ answer is often right.

And why the heck did you score **snac** ’s discussion of the capitalization issue? It seemed pretty obvious that he was discussing the question, rather than taking the test. Does it make you happy to get out the red pen and mark down a big zero?

On one hand, you’re acknowledging that the question was flawed. On the other hand, you seem to be bashing people for not getting answers that match the “correct” answers on the test. That’s really weird.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/24 "2001-07-11T19:16:21Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by racinchikki \*  
> > \*\*1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the state of Georgia.
> > 
> > 1. a. A dictionary contains definitions. A thesaurus contains only synonyms, and occasionally antonyms.  
> > b. There are more entries in a dictionary, because there are words in a dictionary that do not have synonyms.  
> > c. A dictionary can show you how to say and use a word. A thesaurus just gives you the word.  
> > d. Dictionary starts with a D. Thesaurus starts with a T. \*\*
> 
> 1. You get 2 points out of 2.
> 2. You get 2 points out of 4. B and D are not valid; B isn’t because the first part is irrelevant, and the second is repeated from A, and D should be obviously wrong.

Define “irrelevant.” If a dictionary has more entries in it, it is different than a thesaurus.  
And D is NOT wrong. Does or does not dictionary start with a D and thesaurus with a T?

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**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/25 "2001-07-11T21:52:02Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> If you want to tell me it’s wrong, and tell me why, I’m all ears. But you’re saying it doesn’t mean anything? That’s just plain offensive.

dic_tio_nary (noun), plural -nar\*ies  
[Medieval Latin dictionarium, from Late Latin diction-, dictio word, from Latin, speaking]  
First appeared 1526  
1 : a reference book containing words usu. alphabetically arranged along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactical and idiomatic uses  
2 : a reference book listing alphabetically terms or names important to a particular subject or activity along with discussion of their meanings and applications  
3 : a reference book giving for words of one language equivalents in another  
4 : a list (as of items of data or words) stored in a computer for reference (as for information retrieval or word processing)

map [2] (verb) mapped; map_ping  
verb transitive  
First appeared 1586  
1 a : to make a map of \<~ the surface of the moon\>  
b : to delineate as if on a map \<sorrow was mapped on her face\>  
c : to make a survey of for or as if for the purpose of making a map  
d : to assign (as a set or element) in a mathematical correspondence \<~ a set onto itself\> \<~ picture elements to video memory\>  
2 : to plan in detail – often used with out \<~ out a program\>  
3 : to locate (a gene) on a chromosome  
verb intransitive  
of a gene : to be located \<a repressor ~s near the corresponding structural gene\>  
– map_pa_ble (adjective)  
– map_per (noun)

word [1] (noun)  
[Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German wort word, Latin verbum, Greek eirein to say, speak, Hittite weriya- to call, name]  
First appeared before 12th Century  
1 a : something that is said b plural (1) : TALK, DISCOURSE \<putting one’s feelings into ~s\>  
(2) : the text of a vocal musical composition  
c : a brief remark or conversation \<would like to have a ~ with you\>  
2 a (1) : a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning without being divisible into smaller units capable of independent use  
[20 or so less common definitions have been omitted]

con\*cept (noun)  
[Latin conceptum, neuter of conceptus, past participle of concipere to conceive – more at CONCEIVE]  
First appeared 1556  
1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION  
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances

ab_stract [1] (adjective)  
[Medieval Latin abstractus, from Latin, past participle of abstrahere to drag away, from abs-, ab- + trahere to pull, draw]  
First appeared 14th Century  
1 a : disassociated from any specific instance \<~ entity\>  
b : difficult to understand : ABSTRUSE \<~ problems\>  
c : insufficiently factual : FORMAL \<possessed only an ~ right\>  
2 : expressing a quality apart from an object \<the word poem is concrete, poetry is ~\>  
3 a : dealing with a subject in its abstract aspects : THEORETICAL \<~ science\>  
b : IMPERSONAL, DETACHED \<the ~ compassion of a surgeon --Time\>  
4 : having only intrinsic form with little or no attempt at pictorial representation or narrative content \<~ painting\>  
– ab_stract_ly (adverb)  
– ab_stract\*ness (noun)

the_sau_rus (noun), plural -sau_ri or -sau_rus_es  
[New Latin, from Latin, treasure, collection, from Greek thesauros]  
First appeared circa 1823  
1 : TREASURY, STOREHOUSE  
2 a : a book of words or of information about a particular field or set of concepts; especially : a book of words and their synonyms  
b : a list of subject headings or descriptors usu. with a cross-reference system for use in the organization of a collection of documents for reference and retrieval  
– the_sau\*ral (adjective)

> [@](#):
>
> These statements: A dictionary maps words to concepts.  
> A thesaurus maps concepts to words.

Translate to:

A dictionary is a book that deliniates as if on a map words to abstractions

A Thesaurus, a book of words and their synonyms, deliniates as if on a map abstractions to words

To me this means nothing because the statements are totally inaccurate. Definitions of words, which are what one looks for in a dictionary, are concrete, not abstractions, that is why one dictionary will give you roughly the same definition as the next, with only the wording of them being different if they differ at all. And, with a thesaurus you are just looking for things that mean roughly the same thing- I don’t see that that is abstract either. I may be totally missing your point, though, which I’d willingly concede if you explain what you meant.

> [@](#):
>
> That if they ask to change their answer, they’re told “You can’t change your answer, and by asking to do so you automatically fail.”? Sheesh.

Once they have handed in their test booklet they are not allowed to take it back for any reason. Whether this is true in every single case, however, depends on their classroom teacher who is giving the exam, and if he/she strictly follows the rules the state gives them for administering the test. The vast majority of teachers do follow the rules.

> [@](#):
>
> BTW, you told Mirrored Indigo Shadows that dictionaries don’t always have pictures, so that difference was wrong, but later said that dictionaries having pronunciation was right. But dictionaries don’t always have pronunciation. I have a Merriam Webster edition that has no pronunciation guide, and it’s a normal, large, and widely selling dictionary. So that answer is only usually right, just as Mirrored Indigo Shadows’ answer is often right.

> [@](#):
>
> Does or does not dictionary start with a D and thesaurus with a T?

You are both right. However, as I said I graded them by the guidelines we were given, which explictitly state that pronunciation is an acceptable answer, while things like pictures, size of the books, color, length, or spellings of the names, or number of letters in the names are not. Why? They don’t consider them to be serious answers that show an understanding of the question.

> [@](#):
>
> If a dictionary has more entries in it, it is different than a thesaurus.

**If** it does is why it’s not acceptable. Not all dictionaries have more entries than a thesaurus. Part of the problem grading this is that they are basing absolutes on books that vary widely in length and content depending on publisher or edition.

> [@](#):
>
> And why the heck did you score snac’s discussion of the capitalization issue? It seemed pretty obvious that he was discussing the question, rather than taking the test.

Why? Because it’s a prime example of a commonly seen zero. “incorrect work, or some correct work that is not on the concepts being tested.”

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/26 "2001-07-11T22:02:03Z")

</div>

I like syrup better than jelly.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Kelvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Kelvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelvin)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/27 "2001-07-11T22:11:45Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*  
> They don’t consider them to be serious answers that show an understanding of the question.  
> \*\*

If you mark questions for understanding of the question then why does one have to explain themselves very precisely? It seems to me that a lot of answers are disqualified because they are “too vague” when one can easily figure out what they mean. To me that’s like saying, “I understand what you’re saying and it’s correct but you didn’t explain it in a way that EVERYONE will definately understand so you’re wrong.”

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/28 "2001-07-11T22:42:32Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > These statements: A dictionary maps words to concepts.  
> > A thesaurus maps concepts to words.
> 
> Translate to:
> 
> A dictionary is a book that deliniates as if on a map words to abstractions
> 
> A Thesaurus, a book of words and their synonyms, deliniates as if on a map abstractions to words
> 
> To me this means nothing because the statements are totally inaccurate. Definitions of words, which are what one looks for in a dictionary, are concrete, not abstractions, that is why one dictionary will give you roughly the same definition as the next, with only the wording of them being different if they differ at all. And, with a thesaurus you are just looking for things that mean roughly the same thing- I don’t see that that is abstract either. I may be totally missing your point, though, which I’d willingly concede if you explain what you meant.

I’ve stayed out of this, mainly because test questions this bad have been known to cause me to snap at people who aren’t responsible for them. I see what **Sengkelat** means, though, and will try to clarify. (If I’ve misunderstood, then this still stands as my take on the word/concept issue.)

A definition, if regarded as a print artifact on paper or a graphical artifact on a screen, could be considered a concrete thing. That, however, does not address its function, which is to describe an abstract concept. The fact that definitions are similar from one dictionary to another just means that the abstractions being defined are common ones, not that they have somehow become concrete.

Say you define “cat” as “a furry quadruped with retractile claws” (OK, so it’s a silly definition–bear with me). That definition does not refer to any particular cat, or any particular set of cats; it is a description of the idea or, as the Greeks would have it, “form” of catness. It’s a description of an abstract, mapped to a symbol: the word “cat”.

When using a thesaurus, you start with a concept in mind. The fact that that concept is generally represented by a word in your mind is irrelevant; you’re using the thesaurus to map that concept to a different word.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/29 "2001-07-11T22:47:31Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Kelvin \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> > \*\*  
> > They don’t consider them to be serious answers that show an understanding of the question.  
> > \*\*
> 
> If you mark questions for understanding of the question then why does one have to explain themselves very precisely? It seems to me that a lot of answers are disqualified because they are “too vague” when one can easily figure out what they mean. To me that’s like saying, “I understand what you’re saying and it’s correct but you didn’t explain it in a way that EVERYONE will definately understand so you’re wrong.” \*\*

First, we’re not allowed to read anything into the answers, even when we could probably figure out what the kid means- which is one of the things most people hate. Second it’s not necessarly “wrong” because a kid could give 3 or 4 vague(“simplistic” according to the rubric) answers and still get two points for having enough information that is correct. However, he or she wouldn’t get above a two if more than one of the answers is vague. Even 1 or 2 vague answers could get a one. Third, since the kids won’t find out their scores for the one or two questions they field-tested for us, and we want to get rid of this question, it’s _better_ that this one is graded as strictly as the rubric/developer wants, because the low scores, coupled with our assessment of the uselessness of the scoring guide, make a more compelling argument to get rid of the question. Were it a better question, we would have advised that the guidelines be changed, but the question is not suited for 7th graders no matter what scoring guidelines one could come up with.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/30 "2001-07-11T23:23:10Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*dic_tio_nary (noun), plural -nar_ies  
> 2 : a reference book listing alphabetically terms or names important to a particular subject or activity along with discussion of their meanings and applications
> 
> map [2] (verb) mapped; map\*ping  
> 1 d : to assign (as a set or element) in a mathematical correspondence \<~ a set onto itself\> \<~ picture elements to video memory\>
> 
> con\*cept (noun)  
> 1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION
> 
> the_sau_rus (noun), plural -sau_ri or -sau_rus\*es  
> 2 a : a book of words or of information about a particular field or set of concepts
> 
> These statements:
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > A dictionary maps words to concepts.  
> > A thesaurus maps concepts to words.
> 
> Translate to:
> 
> A dictionary is a book that deliniates as if on a map words to abstractions
> 
> A Thesaurus, a book of words and their synonyms, deliniates as if on a map abstractions to words
> 
> To me this means nothing because the statements are totally inaccurate. Definitions of words, which are what one looks for in a dictionary, are concrete, not abstractions, that is why one dictionary will give you roughly the same definition as the next, with only the wording of them being different if they differ at all. And, with a thesaurus you are just looking for things that mean roughly the same thing- I don’t see that that is abstract either. I may be totally missing your point, though, which I’d willingly concede if you explain what you meant.\*\*

Sense “d” of “map” is the one I meant. A mapping is a correlation. Perhaps I’m too used to thinking in terms of computer science, so I expect that meaning to be commonly known when it isn’t. That makes the first statement:

“A dictionary correlates words with concepts.”

I admit, “concepts” is a bit vague here. “Meanings” would have been more spot-on. However, I don’t see it as that big of a stretch.

The second statement is

“A thesaurus correlates concepts with words.”

The term “concepts” is right there in the definition of “thesaurus.” There’s no need to translate “concepts” to “abstractions” because “concepts” already hits the nail on the head. You want to know a word that fits the concept of blue-ness? You look it up, and you find azure, navy, cobalt, etc. It’s a mapping of concepts to words.

> [@](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > That if they ask to change their answer, they’re told “You can’t change your answer, and by asking to do so you automatically fail.”? Sheesh.
> 
> Once they have handed in their test booklet they are not allowed to take it back for any reason. Whether this is true in every single case, however, depends on their classroom teacher who is giving the exam, and if he/she strictly follows the rules the state gives them for administering the test. The vast majority of teachers do follow the rules.

That wasn’t exactly what I was getting at. As I said, I don’t deny that the kids weren’t allowed to change their answer. It’s the idea that not only is my new answer not allowed, my old answer somehow goes away as well. You seem to have ignored that part of the question. Whatever.

> [@](#):
>
> You are both right. However, as I said I graded them by the guidelines we were given, which explictitly state that pronunciation is an acceptable answer, while things like pictures, size of the books, color, length, or spellings of the names, or number of letters in the names are not. Why? They don’t consider them to be serious answers that show an understanding of the question.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding (between you and other posters) could have been avoided if you’d made it more clear when you were speaking for yourself, and when you were telling us what the messed-up question guidelines said.

> [@](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > If a dictionary has more entries in it, it is different than a thesaurus.
> 
> \*\* If \*\* it does is why it’s not acceptable. Not all dictionaries have more entries than a thesaurus. Part of the problem grading this is that they are basing absolutes on books that vary widely in length and content depending on publisher or edition.

That “if” should disqualify the “pronounciation guide” answer, too. But this is an argument I should take up with the test-maker, rather than you.

> [@](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > And why the heck did you score snac’s discussion of the capitalization issue? It seemed pretty obvious that he was discussing the question, rather than taking the test.
> 
> Why? Because it’s a prime example of a commonly seen zero. “incorrect work, or some correct work that is not on the concepts being tested.” \*\*

Ah. If you’d just said “This, if it were given as an answer, would be graded a 0, because it doesn’t really answer the question given” would have made it more clear.

Anyway, I’m sorry I jumped all over you. Clearly, this was a case of miscommunication. I took your lack of diplomatic phrasing as rudeness, when doubtless you didn’t mean it that way.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/31 "2001-07-11T23:32:44Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Balance \*  
> \*\*I’ve stayed out of this, mainly because test questions this bad have been known to cause me to snap at people who aren’t responsible for them. \*\*

I was busy composing my post while you posted this…  
touche’.

And yes, your take on my meaning was accurate. Thanks.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-do-better-than-7th-graders-try-these-questions/71892/32 "2001-07-11T23:45:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \*  
> \*\*
> 
> 1. Rewrite the following sentence using proper capitilization.  
> \*\* the mississippi river travels north to south but does not go through the state of georgia. \*\*
> 2. What are 4 differences between a dictionary and a thesaurus? Explain your answer.  
> \*\*

1. The Mississippi River travels north to south but does not go through the State of Georgia.

2. 

1. A dictionary offers a concise definition of a word, whereas a thesaurus offers synonyms of a word.
2. A dictionary gives the pronunciation of a word, and a thesaurus does not.
3. A dictionary gives the root of a word (eg. Latin, Italian) and a thesaurus does not.
4. A dictionary is more exhaustive than a thesaurus. In other words, a dictionary attempts to define all the words (and many phrases) of the language.

I don’t quite understand the final part of question 2. I think my answers are self-explanatory.

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