Circular logic. I’m arguing that the business world shouldn’t work that way, and you’re essentially saying it works that way because it works that way.
Sorry Evil, you’re just wrong. Flat-assed stupid, too, from the sound of it.
Why do you think you even know the difference between ‘dressed up’ and ‘ratty’? It’s because it matters. In business, you’re interacting with customers, and they have very limited information available to them to judge your competence.
The most basic of that information is your appearance. If it looks like you’ve just straggled in off the park bench where you spent the night, then that’s the judgment the customer will make. To counteract that, you have to work extra hard.
This isn’t about class warfare, stupid. It’s about people’s perception of others. Even you are subject to making judgments based upon appearance. You see someone in a suit, you assume they have money, and power. They might be as much of a poser as you are – or a pothead, or whatever. If you see someone dressed like you are, you probably accept them for who they appear. Careful, the FBI used this trick in the 60’s (and today). You can’t KNOW someone by their appearance, but you can make some reasonable judgments.
By your own definition, you are an asshole. I agree that the world is full of hateful stupidity. Clean up your own act before damning others.
Asshat.
I think how you dress is important, and I’m not an asshole. It’s a matter of respect.
A shabbily dressed interviewee, whether he intends to or not, tells the interviewer that he was not worth the extra five minutes it takes to put on a tie. If you can’t be bothered to make that small effort, then why should I be bothered to hire you?
It’s like not removing your hat when you enter a house. You may not intend to tell your host that their house would not be suffient to protect you from the elements, but you are.
I think it’s a ballpeen hammer made of Saltines.
I swore this thread read ‘Can you dress like you want at your job?’. Sure, until I change into scrubs. But I still wore a suit to the interview. Better overdressed then underdressed I say. Well, for work stuff anyway. 
There’s a huge gulf of options between ‘shabby’ and ‘necktie’, though. What if I don’t own a necktie?
A polo shirt and clean, non-fraying jeans are comfortable, more financially accessible than a suit and tie, and in no way should convey any kind of disrespect to a potential employer, unless that employer is a charter member of the Offenderati, Those Who Take Exception To Everything.
And here’s why it works that way:
I’m the parent of a child and I want to have some photographs made of Baby. I visit Store A. Upon entering, I see the staff is sloppily dressed, with questionable hygiene. Maybe their wearing jeans with the crotch at their knees and their underwear showing. Their shirt may or may not be clean (much less pressed). Perhaps they didn’t shave today.
Am I going to want to have a business relationship with these people? Do I want to pay them money for services? Do I even want to look at examples of their work? Not when I can go to Store B and find a staff that is dressed in clean, neat clothing and they’ve taken some level of care with their appearance.
If Store A looses enough customers to Store B so that it goes out of business, then the issue of appropriate dress is settled. Businesses exist to make their owners money - that’s why “it works that way.”
CandidGamera, I understand exactly what you’re saying- it’s part of the same argument my kids used to give me.
And I’m not saying that you’re wrong.
But the business world is competitive, and the advantages go to those who are willing to do what it takes to give them an edge.
If a suit is an edge, you wear it. If cleanliness or “not smelling like weed” is an edge, take a shower and don’t smell like weed.
It sounds to me like the OP doesn’t want Brooks Brothers, but he’d take a pair of slacks and a clean shirt. Which isn’t too much to ask.
And as far as “it shouldn’t work that way,” the fact is that it does, and railing about it doesn’t change it and never will, no matter who rails or how loudly or how many. When you’re in charge, you get to make the rules. In order to get in charge, you have to play by them. In the course of playing by the rules, and becoming the man in charge, you realize that the rules actually do work and are neither arbitrary nor capricious, but serve a purpose. By the time you get to where you *can * change them, you find that you are disinclined to do so.
Point One : I explicitly made exception for standards of clothing maintenance and cleanliness. So assume clean polo shirt and clean, non-frayed jeans in your first example. Anybody who’d ditch a photographer for wearing those is just silly. I bolded part of your statement that’s worth noting - that part’s not too much to ask. A suit and tie, though, is. What is it with people here assuming there’s no middle ground between a tuxedo and a ratty t-shirt with boxer shorts?
Point Two : The issue at hand is the interview. If your business is upscale, and you have a legitimate business need for the employees to wear suits and ties every day, you can point that out in the interview, if the person happens to come in with aforementioned polo shirt and jeans.
Sounds like to me he wants a button-up shirt, tie, and ironed pants.
Bolding mine. I disagree. Beyond a certain number of disaffected interviewees, employers have no choice but to capitulate. That’s how unions work, after all. Further, the IT industry, or at least the corner of it that I get to see, is changing the business attire standards. IBM may still use suits and ties, but things are loosening up for us.
It comes down to selling yourself. If I sell my car, I’m going to wash it, maybe polish it, and clean it out. If I sell a house, I clean it up, keep it neat and nice. If I go on an interview, I clean myself up, shave, hair styled well, dressed nicely.
Yes, you can expect the buyer to look past the grime, clutter, and general unkemptness to see the value underneath. Or… you can put a bit of effort into presenting what you’re selling in a positive light.
Think about it this way, if any of these applicants had presented themselves well, they would have stood out from the crowd and made an impression. The effort required is minimal and the gains are tremendous.
But the smart interviewee has figured that out before he comes in the door. That’s the point–it’s an established convention that a keen interviewee will figure out enough about the company he/she is interviewing for to know the expected dress code and wear something on the upper end of that scale.
If you have two potential employees, with more or less the same skill set, except one seems to know enough about the job to know the appearance/demeanor that will be expected of him, and the other seems to be totally ignorant of those expectations and will have to be taught a bunch of stuff–fairly embarressing, personal stuff to teach–which one are you going to hire? As a manager, why sign up for some really uncomfortable converstions about personal appearance when you can just skip them and go with the guy who already knows what’s up?
I used “necktie” as an example. Substitute “non-wrinkled shirt” instead.
CG, you’re describing dressing nicely. That’s fine. The OP was describing something totally different. You and I may be in violent argeement here. If not, would you care to wait a month, then we could settle it in The Colosseum?
I think the IT industry is a bad example. You might have rooms of programmers in their pajamas, but when it comes time to sell your ideas and product to buyers, they trot out the guy that can make a good impression. That means well dressed, good hygene, and a fair command of the english language. None of these things are necessary to be a good programmer.
Being a child photographer is a customer service position. I’ve never seen a customer service position that either didn’t require a dress code or actual uniform.
And as it has been said before, being able to dress for an interview shows an employer that
- you respect his buisiness
- you respect his customers
- you understand the rules of the ‘game’
I don’t know of any other metric that tells as much in a short period of time…and in business, time is money.
Hopefully the moderated dress codes of the IT world will spread to infect other realms.
The rules of the game are precisely what I want to change…
If you want the freakin’ job, then BUY ONE. If you don’t want the job, then don’t. Your choice.
(And, before you flame me that you can’t afford one - What’s an inexpensive tie cost? $10? $15? Sounds like a pretty good investment to me. If even THAT is too much, BORROW one. As the other posters have said, make an effort. Otherwise… Well, the unemployment line is over there.)
A big thumbs down to you CandidGamera, as I’m not trying to get the people who work here to dress better or am I endorsing “American business culture” atire. Wear what you want to work. That’s cool by me. I’m wearing jeans, sneaker & an ugly shirt right now. I didn’t shave this morning either. But if I’m going to meet with a client tomorrow, I won’t look this way tomorrow. It’s about respect.
For the record, once I hire you, you can wear pretty much anything you want. When you are making a first impression, I expect you to leave the leather jacket with fringe for the Whitesnake reunion tour. I expect you not to reek of weed. I’m not looking for suits & ties. I don’t think I’m asking for too much. If you do, get a clue.
Oh…Moe, I guess these applicants just came from where the Down Boys go.
Our entire company has gone business casual except for those few who meet face to face with customers. I’d rather wear jeans myself, but it is a conservative company and getting business casual was a tough fight. So I’m not complaining.
However, when you come in for an interview with us, you should dress appropriately. Most candidates wear suits though those who interview in the creative departments (copy, design) and IT usually go with upscale business casual (for guys that’s mostly a blazer, khakis, and a button down or polo shirt; women have a bit more leeway).
If someone shows up dressed overly casual (e.g. jeans) or sloppy, it’s a big red flag. If you can’t even be persuaded to dress appropriately for an interview, how do I know you’ll respect our other corporate rules/norms? It’s not like you’re being asked to compromise your moral values or anything. There are things that are inappropriate in our workplace, and I wonder if candidates coming in wearing jeans or the like understand that. Also, I’ve got to wonder why you didn’t take the time to call and find out what other applicants typically wear to interviews (one quick call to the receptionist or HR and you’d find out).
I have major issues with the mindset that thinks “This person’s not wearing a jacket or tie - they don’t think this interview/business/transaction is important!”
It’s superificial, exclusionary and smacks of elitism.
And to the OP : Your initial statement, especially the part I quoted recently to another poster, made it look like a much higher standard than you’re now suggesting.
Why? What advantage is it to anyone? Do you really think there’s this big untapped pool of slacker super geniuses out there itching to be given a chance?
Work is work. You show up, you do what your superiors expect you to do, you pick up your check, you go home. This fixation people have with ‘expressing yourself’ at the job is ridiculous. I don’t pay anyone to freely express themselves. I allow it so long as it doesn’t conflict with my business goals, but I’m not here to provide you a canvas to paint yourself on. I’ll make use of your personal creativity every chance I get, but otherwise, secure that shit.
Jeez…and I work at a college teeming with slackers…and yet somehow, I manage to field a staff (of students) that comes off as professional. I expect grown folks to know better.
Well, I’ve never worn a tie to an interview to my recollection, And I’ve been offered every job I ever interviewed for, so thankfully, there are employers with their heads outside the area of their ass.
Dunno what ties cost. I own two clip-ons for use at family weddings and such, and I’ve had them for ten years or so. I do have an objection to spending money to appease an officer of a corporate entity that, ideally, is supposed to start paying you.