# Can you enjoy a story without good guys i.e., characters to root for)? (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630 "2012-11-20T18:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/1 "2012-11-20T18:30:14Z")
In a current thread about **Dune** , a Doper writes: > [@](#): > > The Baron was a sadistic pedophile. Paul kicked off a galaxy-spanning jihad that killed, most likely, billions. That’s one of the things I admire about the original saga. It is refreshingly free of good guys. I have heard sentiments like this before, and I am always mystified. I can’t _stand_ reading books or watching shows/movies/plays that are populated only by victims and villains. There has to be someone in the story I want to root for, whom I want to win; and that person had better be the main character. If the main character is villainous, then I need him to get his comeuppance. I couldn’t make it through Dune for that reason. More recently–last week, specifically–I lost interest in Burn Notice because Michael Weston crossed a line in committing cold-blood murder – not to serve his country or save a loved one, but simply out of a desire for revenge. As I watched the episode I had no desire for Michael to escape. I wanted Sam, Madeleine, and Jesse to betray him for their own good, because he no longer deserved their allegiance; and though I know that wouldn’t happen and that he’d get away, I was annoyed when he escaped his pursuers, because his pursuers were in the right. But that’s just me. What about the rest of you? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/2 "2012-11-20T18:38:56Z")
Old myths never have good guys, according to modern moral standards. Both sides fighting over Troy are shortsighted, misogynistic, violent, I-don’t -care-how-many-civilians-get-killed-as-long-as-I-get-the-glory bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/3 "2012-11-20T18:44:16Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Old myths never have good guys, according to modern moral standards. > > Both sides fighting over Troy are shortsighted, misogynistic, violent, I-don’t -care-how-many-civilians-get-killed-as-long-as-I-get-the-glory bastards. I’m sure it was not your intention to slander great Odysseus, my esteemed fellow champion of Athena. That bastard Polyphemus had it coming. Joking aside, you do have a good point, though, though I have a counter. While I don’t like Akhilles even a tiny bit, I can emphasize with his position and aims in the Iliad; I understand and can agree with his reasons for sulking in the tent, and his desire for revenge on Hektor for Patrokles’ murder. He’s a monster, but not an _utter_ monster. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/4 "2012-11-20T18:53:12Z")
Of course! There’s no justice, after all. There’s just us. QtM, deep in my lair, poking at evil. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/5 "2012-11-20T18:53:45Z")
I need a hero or heroine. Schwarzenegger, for example. Or Sigourney Weaver. Strong types that always win. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/6 "2012-11-20T18:55:20Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Of course! > > There’s no justice, after all. There’s just us. > > QtM, deep in my lair, poking at evil. Mention my love of Turin Turambar and the hobbit dies. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/7 "2012-11-20T18:58:11Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Rollo\_Tomasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Rollo\_Tomasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rollo_Tomasi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/8 "2012-11-20T18:59:47Z")
I don’t need good guys or sympathetic characters. Pretty much all I ask is that the characters be compelling and multifaceted. A whole story of Snidely Whiplash types would not be interesting to me. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/9 "2012-11-20T19:01:00Z")
Ditto with the “Of course I can.” Harry Flashman is a total rotter, but I love (re-)reading of his misadventures and I root for him to overcome. Heroes can be boring. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/10 "2012-11-20T19:05:06Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > I don’t need good guys or sympathetic characters. Pretty much all I ask is that the characters be compelling and multifaceted. A whole story of Snidely Whiplash types would not be interesting to me. How are you defining “sympathetic character”? To me a sympathetic character is one who holds my interest because I want to see him or her succeed in his aims, or one I want to see grow as a person because of the events of the story. And even that isn’t strictly necessary; I can handle a villain protagonist who ultimately loses (even if that loss is in that he gets what he sought only to realize the price was too high). In Donna Tartt’s _The Secret History_, neither the narrator (Richard) nor any of his friends are especially likable, when you know them well. By turns they are arrogant, foolish, selfish, amoral, and untrustworthy. But this only becomes apparent when you get to know them well, and I was only willing to get to know them well because there were good things about them too. Had they been uniformly and wholly vile, I’d never have had the patience to finish the book. And had they not generally gotten what they deserved (more than their sins merited, in some cases), I’d not have ever re-read the book. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/11 "2012-11-20T19:09:15Z")
Yep. I recently finished J.K. Rowling’s _The Casual Vacancy_, and not a single character in that story wasn’t deeply flawed in some way. It was still a good book. Likewise with the also-recently-finished _The Line of Beauty_, by Alan Hollinghurst. It wasn’t quite as good/entertaining as Rowling’s novel, but still enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Rollo\_Tomasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Rollo\_Tomasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rollo_Tomasi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/12 "2012-11-20T19:26:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How are you defining “sympathetic character”? To me a sympathetic character is one who holds my interest because I want to see him or her succeed in his aims, or one I want to see grow as a person because of the events of the story. And even that isn’t strictly necessary; I can handle a villain protagonist who ultimately loses (even if that loss is in that he gets what he sought only to realize the price was too high). Nope, I don’t need to see them succeed or get what they want. It’s frequently fascinating to watch how they fail and how they react to failure. For example, I love the movie [Closer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376541/) (which I know a lot of people hate, but stay with me here). It’s ostensibly about the romantic misadventures of four people, but basically, all four people are jerks, and no one ends up happy in the end. That’s fine with me. I found the interplay between the characters very compelling, and their ultimate fates suited them. It really didn’t matter to me at all that I didn’t like any of the characters. Hell, I’d probably cross the street to avoid them if I met them in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/13 "2012-11-20T19:50:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have heard sentiments like this before, and I am always mystified. I can’t _stand_ reading books or watching shows/movies/plays that are populated only by victims and villains. There has to be someone in the story I want to root for, whom I want to win; and that person had better be the main character. If the main character is villainous, then I need him to get his comeuppance. I agree. If all the characters are jerks or worse, and there’s no one in the cast I could stand to be around, the book gets set down, the channel gets changed, etc. I need at least one likeable non-bit character to find a story (in whatever medium) at all enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/14 "2012-11-20T20:19:54Z")
Short story, yes; novel, generally no. As other posters have noted, the “good guy” may be seriously flawed, but I need to empathize with him/her at some level. I think that’s why I was unable to finish _A Confederacy of Dunces_ or _The World According to Garp_ – I just didn’t like the characters. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/15 "2012-11-20T21:18:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Mention my love of Turin Turambar and the hobbit dies. Skald Galbasi, scëal balgaskannën! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/16 "2012-11-20T21:26:42Z")
I need to have at least one person who isn’t perhaps quite as horrible as the others. In Dune, pretty much everyone is horrible, and I have never enjoyed the book. (you have some who are waaay more horrible, but no one who is less horrible.) ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/17 "2012-11-20T21:32:49Z")
One of my favorite movies is “Pennies From Heaven”. The one with Steve Martin and Bernadette Peters (and I also like the original British mini-series it’s based on). Mr. Sali can’t watch it, he finds it too sad and depressing. I say, “but it’s a good movie, you can’t say it isn’t well-made and entertaining, even so.” He agrees with that, but because it’s not a happy feel-good movie, he just doesn’t enjoy it. This from a man who loves Pulp Fiction, Fargo, and the Godfather. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/18 "2012-11-20T21:41:36Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > Nope, I don’t need to see them succeed or get what they want. It’s frequently fascinating to watch how they fail and how they react to failure. For example, I love the movie [Closer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376541/) (which I know a lot of people hate, but stay with me here). It’s ostensibly about the romantic misadventures of four people, but basically, all four people are jerks, and no one ends up happy in the end. That’s fine with me. I found the interplay between the characters very compelling, and their ultimate fates suited them. It really didn’t matter to me at all that I didn’t like any of the characters. Hell, I’d probably cross the street to avoid them if I met them in real life. I’m in this line. I don’t care how closely the “lead” character(s) in a story adhere to my personal morality, so long as there’s something about them that I find compelling. And yeah, “find compelling” is pretty vague, but experiencing a story is necessarily a subjective, “know it when you see/feel it” kind of thing, after all. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/19 "2012-11-20T21:53:17Z")
Yes. Unforgiven is what I’ll use for an example. The outlaws are likeable, but they’re not good at all and the characters that follow the law aren’t exactly likeable, but they’re after the outlaws. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/20 "2012-11-20T22:26:17Z")
I _can_ enjoy a story without good guys, but it’s not as deeply satisfying. The stories I am most inclined to love are those that convincingly reassure me that good guys exist, and that—at least sometimes—they prevail. I appreciated what **CJJ** \* said in a [related thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655849) a few months ago: > [@When is the likability of a character important?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-the-likability-of-a-character-important/625726/23): > > This is exactly right; the reader/audience needs a way to enter into the story–without it the reader can quickly lose interest–and a likeable character is one of the easiest routes for that. > > Character likeability is less important if there is another way into the story–say, the complexity of an intriguing and multi-layered plot, or a rich, engaging conflict of style/philiosophy between two or more otherwise unlikeable characters (like an argument that’s interesting even if you aren’t invested in either side winning). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630.md?page=2)