# Can you enjoy a story without good guys i.e., characters to root for)? (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630 "2012-11-20T18:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/41 "2012-11-21T19:33:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Ditto with the “Of course I can.” > > Harry Flashman is a total rotter, but I love (re-)reading of his misadventures and I root for him to overcome. Heroes can be boring. Nitpick: Flashman _thinks_ he’s a total rotter, and he’s not far wrong - the man is, after all, an unrepentant rapist. But he does have some vestigial decency; at the conclusion of the Indian Mutiny, he orders men released prior to their execution by cannon-fire. There really isn’t any reason for him to do this other than a sense of empathy and compassion, perhaps brought to the fore by the utter nighmarishness of the Mutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/42 "2012-11-21T22:23:35Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Not really, which is why I didn’t watch more than a few episodes of _Seinfeld._ I could enjoy Seinfeld because the characters always got their comeuppance. Also Elaine was an 8.8. ---
**Author:** ![FrigidLizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@FrigidLizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrigidLizard)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/43 "2012-11-21T22:27:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I said to my mother, after we’d watched _Chicago_ for her first time, that it was really kind of a perverse story…there IS no real hero. The protagonist is an unrepentant murderess, as is the co-starring role. Their lawyer is just slimy. Even the authorities (Mama Morton, for instance) are venal. The only roles approaching “good guy” status, but far from hero, are Amos and the Hunyak. Amos disappears less than halfway into the movie, and the Hunyak gets the drop. There is NOBODY who’s actually truly sympathetic in the whole show/movie. I came to this thread to mention just this. Although, I think if the movie had ended 5 minutes before it did, with Roxy destitute, alone and forgotten, it could have really worked. Her sleazy lawyer, corrupt authorities, and fellow murderesses, it wouldn’t have mattered that they succeeded, if only Roxy ended up as yesterday’s news. I have to agree with the OP, I can enjoy a villainous protagonist, so long as he gets his comeuppance. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/44 "2012-11-21T22:40:53Z")
I need to _like_ the characters, though they don’t have to be the good guys. For instance, I would have LOVED Alan Rickman’s Sheriff of Nottingham to have beaten Costner’s Robin Hood. That was a great character, just not a very “good” one. And obviously, that’s a “win” situation–plots don’t need to have that particular dynamic. But the characters still have to be likeable and interesting. For instance, we stopped watching _Mad Men_ after several episodes because we found exactly zero of the characters interesting or likeable. We could watch it for the sheer costume/set-dressing period porn aspect of it, but that’s only interesting for a few episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/45 "2012-11-22T01:57:48Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Skald Galbasi, scëal balgaskannën! 😃 The usual threats. It’s giant jewel-eating darkness-vomiting spiders this week. Well, just one, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/46 "2012-11-22T02:42:22Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I wish to underline the distinction between “good guys” and “characters you can root for”. Granted, given my personal outlook, the people I’m inclined to root for are usually the good guys. However, a sufficiently compelling, personable bad guy can fill that role under some circumstances. It helps if said bad guy is not acting in opposition to any real “good guys”, and even more if there simply aren’t any good guys in play. > > For an example, I offer Steven Brust’s _Taltos_ novels. Vlad Taltos is _not_ a good guy. He is, in fact, a thug, an extortionist, and a murderer, many times over. On the other hand, he’s a near-constant underdog who’s loyal to his friends, and most of the people he tangles with are at least as bad as he is. The story is also in first person, with Vlad sharing his thoughts and point of view freely. It’s surprisingly easy to forget many, if not all, of the nasty things he’s done and find yourself rooting for him when he gets in over his head. Upon further thought I agree (and I do like the Vlad Taltos series). I can root for a sympathetic character like Vlad and enjoy it when he wins, even though he isn’t a good guy (especially in the earlier written books). But when I start wanting even the protagonists to die…no; that’s just not fun for me. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/47 "2012-11-22T02:43:19Z")
As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that lack of “good guys” ( or a work where the good guy fails ) is not really an impediment to my enjoyment. But unrelenting downers are, which is kinda a blow to any pretensions I might have had of being a film sophisticate ;). At one time I would have argued otherwise, clinging to the imagined virtue of getting enjoyment from even the bleakest fare. But about the time _Brokeback Mountain_ came out I finally had to admit to myself that I simply was not interested in indulging another misery-fest, no matter how well-written, skillfully acted or beautifully shot. I just don’t enjoy them - they’re more of a slog than a pleasure. Bleakness has to be leavened out with something. I love a certain degree of bleakness in service to the greater story - I’m a huge fan of stuff like _The Wire_. But by contrast a _Jude_ or a _Dancer in the Dark_ just isn’t worth my time anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/48 "2012-11-22T03:30:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The usual threats. It’s giant jewel-eating darkness-vomiting spiders this week. More like an observation. Skald Galbasi, scëal balgaskannën! “Skald, pervy hobbit fancier, fancied by pervy hobbits.” I think. I might have messed up the conjugation, and ended up saying “Skald, fancy hobbit perver, perved by fancy hobbits”. I tried to work your love for Turin into an elvish pun, but had not the skill. :mad: I truly lack JRRT’s gift for languages. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/49 "2012-11-22T03:41:33Z")
> [@FrigidLizard](#): > > I came to this thread to mention just this. Although, I think if the movie had ended 5 minutes before it did, with Roxy destitute, alone and forgotten, it could have really worked. Her sleazy lawyer, corrupt authorities, and fellow murderesses, it wouldn’t have mattered that they succeeded, if only Roxy ended up as yesterday’s news. I have to agree with the OP, I can enjoy a villainous protagonist, so long as he gets his comeuppance. It may end up like that anyway. At the time the show/movie ends, vaudeville has less than a decade of life left in it! ---
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/50 "2012-11-22T03:44:41Z")
No. Usually if that is the case, I end up wishing that they all would die. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/51 "2012-11-22T03:50:51Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > I agree. If all the characters are jerks or worse, and there’s no one in the cast I could stand to be around, the book gets set down, the channel gets changed, etc. > > I need at least one likeable non-bit character to find a story (in whatever medium) at all enjoyable. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/52 "2012-11-22T03:51:29Z")
Yes, I can and it surprises me that so many can’t One example I like to bring up is the _Little Shop of horrors_ from 1986. Seymore is a rather likable character who does some truly awful things. Yet when it comes to getting his just desserts, no one wants to see it. Instead they want a typical happy ending where the boy and girl get together. The DVD has the original ending and I feel it is much more appropriate for the story and makes the movie much better. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/53 "2012-11-22T13:49:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that lack of “good guys” ( or a work where the good guy fails ) is not really an impediment to my enjoyment. But unrelenting downers are, which is kinda a blow to any pretensions I might have had of being a film sophisticate ;). I have no patience for stories where no one is allowed to be happy. I don’t care if people have to suffer, but there has to be some kind of payoff other than the unrelenting misery of existence. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/54 "2012-11-22T13:51:02Z")
The only way I can enjoy a book or film where there is no one I can identify with is if it is incredibly well written and/or acted. Otherwise, I get bored and start wishing everyone in it would die. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/55 "2012-11-23T16:16:55Z")
I don’t need good guys, if the writing is good. Decent prose or big ideas can get past the need for sympathetic characters - For instance, Roquentin being an insufferable prat hardly lessened my enjoyment of Sartre’s _Nausea_ in the slightest. It’s kind of like what\*\* amarinth\*\* said - I don’t have to like the _characters_, I have to like the _author_. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/56 "2012-11-23T16:36:57Z")
> [@DummyGladHands](#): > > No. Usually if that is the case, I end up wishing that they all would die. Pretty much this - I have this problem with Game of Thrones, actually. I don’t CARE who “wins” and who dies because none of the characters have anything that makes me want to see them survive. Therefore, there’s no investment or reason for me to watch - in a story full of people I can’t stand, the outcome is irrelevant because no matter what happens, I won’t care. A good story is one that can get me to invest in the characters. (Again, the difference between “good guys” and “characters you can root for” is noted.) And I don’t generally invest in despicable people. Note though: This is generally more applicable for works that take longer to consume - I can tolerate (but will probably never re-read) a short story with no one I care about in it, and even a film is often short enough that is isn’t burdensome, but a novel, series of novels, or TV show? Forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/57 "2012-11-23T16:45:29Z")
Like many others, I do need a character I can root for, but I do not need a “good guy”. An example that I don’t think anyone else has mentioned is Leon, from _The Professional_. By no stretch of the imagination is he a good guy, but he’s not an absolute monster like the antagonists are, and in context, that’s enough. More interesting, though, is when I can sympathize with _both_ sides of a conflict, or even where both sides can reasonably be described as “good”. For an example of the first, I present _Order of the Stick_: Yeah, obviously I want the good guys to win, but on the other hand, Redcloak really does have a legitimate grievance, and what he wants for his people really is reasonable (Xykon, of course, is unsympathetic, but nothing says that _all_ of the villains must be sympathetic). And for the latter, I’d present _Princess Mononoke_, where there’s a conflict between what’s good for humans and what’s good for the creatures of the forest, and you really do want both sides to live in harmony, even though you know that it just isn’t possible. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/58 "2012-11-23T17:29:42Z")
I was about to say I love stories without good guys and actually prefer them. Then I thought about it for a second and you know what? Setting plays a huge part of it for me too. Jacqueline Carey did a duology which is basically LotR from Sauron/his side’s POV. I really, really like it, even though all the main characters fall on the evil side and are the people we’re supposed to be rooting against. But then I think about, say, a story about fratboys who roofie sorority girls and do obnoxious things while drunk and I’d hate that. I don’t know why the setting makes so much difference to me - I think it’s because I can distance myself from, say, the Lannisters, but the Plastics from Mean Girls hit way too close to home. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/59 "2012-11-23T19:26:41Z")
_Bad Santa_: enough said. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630/60 "2012-11-23T21:13:33Z")
_Reservoir Dogs_? Aside from the undercover cop, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-enjoy-a-story-without-good-guys-i-e-characters-to-root-for-spoilers/641630.md?page=4)