# Can you fight Nihilism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 16, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561 "2020-03-16T03:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/21 "2020-03-16T13:44:48Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Get a kitten. No don’t do this. Don’t get a kitten until you can deal with your obsessive thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/22 "2020-03-16T13:57:32Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because when it comes to Nihilism one can’t really deny that it is right. Sure I can: I hereby deny that Nihilism is right. So there. > [@](#): > > I don’t have an answer for why life is worth it [IS LIFE WORTH LIVING?](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26659/26659-h/26659-h.htm#P32) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/23 "2020-03-16T14:04:26Z")
Imagine the meaning that life _ought to have_ if it did indeed have a meaning. (Or if “meaning” isn’t quite the right word here, the sense of active engagement, something that would give you a sense of intention and desire and purpose). Chase that thread. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/24 "2020-03-16T14:20:13Z")
My life doesn’t having meaning, and yet I don’t feel nihilistic. I don’t know what my life’s purpose is, and yet I am not constantly thinking about throwing myself off of a cliff. You can be agnostic about all the existential stuff and still get up everyday with vigor and a sense of self-contentment. My cat does this everyday. He wakes up from his long-ass naps and goes about his business of looking at the birds in the backyard, pooping, eating, watching people go by from the living room window, chasing/running away from ghosts that only he can see, and snuggling next to me. He gets pleasure out of these things and that pleasure is what keeps him going. Not “meaning”. People talk up the importance of having a sense of purpose and meaning. And I do think those things are important. But what is much more important is having a sense of enjoyment. People who don’t find enjoyment in anything tend not to see the point of anything, including living. People who do enjoy things don’t tend to care about “the point”. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/25 "2020-03-16T14:33:40Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Get a kitten. But please, provide it with food and water. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/26 "2020-03-16T14:50:37Z")
Perhaps this video on “optimistic nihilism” might help: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/MBRqu0YOH14/maxresdefault.jpg "Optimistic Nihilism") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14) ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/27 "2020-03-16T15:46:13Z")
After actually reading your OP, I think you have to distinguish between objective meaning and subjective meaning. There more than likely is not objective meaning to life, the universe and everything. However, you as a tiny piece of the universe, have a subjective perceptive that is just as valid (or invalid or neither or both) as anything else, and you can use your facilities to try and come up with a subjective narrative that works for you and makes life worth living- for you. Unlike most people and most of the living world who are living on automatic, you as a conscious being, aware of your consciousness and the infinite and eternal universe you find yourself in, have the amazing, one in a zillion chance to decide what to do with, how to approach and what to think of/feel about- this brief flash of life. I don’t think that conceiving what subjective meaning and/or meaningfulness is for you is “fake” as you put it. If anything, it is one of the more authentic and personal things you can attempt. Granted, it may be difficult to divorce this conception from what your societal and biological programming tells you is important and worthwhile. Wasn’t it Camus who tackled this subject in The Myth of Sisyphus? Perhaps some questions to ask yourself might be: Why do I feel that life should be meaningful to begin with? Is this need for objective meaning just a human perspective that I have been taught? What would objective meaning actually be like if it existed? Would it not just be a prison, enslaving you to its purpose? Why is being, in and of itself, without objective meaning not “good enough” for you? What is actually subjectively meaningful to you? Or even just worthwhile? Anything? Does anything at all make life worth living to you? Perhaps nothing is meaningful or worthwhile to you. Then you are truly fucked. I am sure many people over the centuries have come to that abyss. On the other hand, many others have conceived or discovered worthwhile, subjective meaning for themselves and that is good enough for them. Who is to say they are wrong? Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/28 "2020-03-16T16:19:44Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > No, it’s dealing with the reality of our existence. Like the link and the quoted parts mention about philosophy not being some kind of band-aid for our self esteem and trying to fight against meaninglessness by attempting to impose meaning on the world. No. And medication is not a bandaid. It’s a potential tool for people who are in mental agony. Mental agony is what your post history suggests, not philosophical speculation. I again urge you to get a med evaluation. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/29 "2020-03-16T19:06:27Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It would have been better if I never read any of this stuff and gone on blissfully ignorant of all of it. Before I never really questioned why I was doing things but at least I felt purpose and meaning to what I was doing. But to realize that there is no real true purpose or point to the things I do I am left in a void. Nothing matters anymore, and it just feels like I’m doing what I did before out of some habit. I can’t pretend anymore, there just isn’t any logic or reason to it. Pretending something matters or has meaning is just dodging Nihilism. You feel depressed. You seek out and read things to justify your depression. You lament having read something that’s made you realize how depressed you are. You wonder why you feel so depressed. Obsessively rinse and repeat. What does your therapist recommend when you enter these downward spirals? I can’t imagine it’s easy to try to manage them. Is there anything that has worked in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/30 "2020-03-16T20:50:05Z")
> [@by-tor](#): > > After actually reading your OP, I think you have to distinguish between objective meaning and subjective meaning. > > There more than likely is not objective meaning to life, the universe and everything. However, you as a tiny piece of the universe, have a subjective perceptive that is just as valid (or invalid or neither or both) as anything else, and you can use your facilities to try and come up with a subjective narrative that works for you and makes life worth living- for you. > > Unlike most people and most of the living world who are living on automatic, you as a conscious being, aware of your consciousness and the infinite and eternal universe you find yourself in, have the amazing, one in a zillion chance to decide what to do with, how to approach and what to think of/feel about- this brief flash of life. > > I don’t think that conceiving what subjective meaning and/or meaningfulness is for you is “fake” as you put it. If anything, it is one of the more authentic and personal things you can attempt. Granted, it may be difficult to divorce this conception from what your societal and biological programming tells you is important and worthwhile. > > Wasn’t it Camus who tackled this subject in The Myth of Sisyphus? > > Perhaps some questions to ask yourself might be: Why do I feel that life should be meaningful to begin with? Is this need for objective meaning just a human perspective that I have been taught? What would objective meaning actually be like if it existed? Would it not just be a prison, enslaving you to its purpose? Why is being, in and of itself, without objective meaning not “good enough” for you? What is actually subjectively meaningful to you? Or even just worthwhile? Anything? Does anything at all make life worth living to you? > > Perhaps nothing is meaningful or worthwhile to you. Then you are truly fucked. I am sure many people over the centuries have come to that abyss. On the other hand, many others have conceived or discovered worthwhile, subjective meaning for themselves and that is good enough for them. Who is to say they are wrong? > > Good luck. > **[Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Nihil Unbound: Enlightenment and Extinction](https://www.amazon.com/Nihil-Unbound-Enlightenment-Extinction-Brassier/product-reviews/023052205X)** > > Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Nihil Unbound: Enlightenment and Extinction at Amazon.com. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Actually that view is wrong. “being” has no value and neither does being conscious, these are just diversions we tell ourselves to avoid dealing with Nihilism. > [@](#): > > “Philosophers would do well to desist from issuing any further injunctions about the need to re-establish the meaningfulness of existence, the purposefulness of life, or mend the shattered concord between man and nature. Philosophy should be more than a sop to the pathetic twinge of human self-esteem. Nihilism is not an existential quandary but a speculative opportunity” I cannot establish what was never there and I cannot deny the reality of existence. I am not important, what I do does not matter and has no value. To suggest otherwise would be wrong and it would be denying that simple truth. I keep saying to people I can’t pretend that things I do have value or that anything does, because it’s just not true. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/31 "2020-03-16T20:53:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You feel depressed. You seek out and read things to justify your depression. You lament having read something that’s made you realize how depressed you are. You wonder why you feel so depressed. Obsessively rinse and repeat. > > What does your therapist recommend when you enter these downward spirals? I can’t imagine it’s easy to try to manage them. Is there anything that has worked in the past? I’m depressed because I realized I have been living a lie for most of my life and I can’t ignore it anymore. A therapist cannot help one with problems of existence because they think is some medical cause or emotional problem, but it’s not. The only things that worked in the past were telling myself sweet lies that meaning exists but it doesn’t and it never did. What I do doesn’t matter and there isn’t anything special about being alive. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/32 "2020-03-16T20:55:01Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Actually that view is wrong. “being” has no value and neither does being conscious, these are just diversions we tell ourselves to avoid dealing with Nihilism. > > I cannot establish what was never there and I cannot deny the reality of existence. I am not important, what I do does not matter and has no value. To suggest otherwise would be wrong and it would be denying that simple truth. I keep saying to people I can’t pretend that things I do have value or that anything does, because it’s just not true. I certainly hope that there are people in your life who do not share your feelings of worthlessness and who would miss you if you were no longer present in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/33 "2020-03-16T21:03:53Z")
My response to nihilism is “so what?”. You assert that life has no meaning. My question is, why should I be bothered by the fact that life has no meaning? Life being meaningless doesn’t make food taste worse or TV less entertaining or video games less fun. So what’s the problem? Seriously, why is this something that needs coping with? Life being meaningless doesn’t make it _unpleasant_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/34 "2020-03-16T21:25:06Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I cannot establish what was never there and I cannot deny the reality of existence. I am not important, what I do does not matter and has no value. To suggest otherwise would be wrong and it would be denying that simple truth. I keep saying to people I can’t pretend that things I do have value or that anything does, because it’s just not true. The things that I do that cause personal enjoyment have objectively true results - it is objectively true that they cause me personal enjoyment. As a human being I am incapable of refraining from making value judgements - some things are nasty and unpleasant; some things are pleasing and enjoyable. My brain and body makes these assessments whether I want them to or not. Thus, it’s objectively true that the things that I do have value, because I value the things I do. I enjoy the things I enjoy, and that is the value that the enjoyable things have. And it is a true valuation. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/35 "2020-03-16T21:57:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I’m depressed because I realized I have been living a lie for most of my life and I can’t ignore it anymore. A therapist cannot help one with problems of existence because they think is some medical cause or emotional problem, but it’s not. The only things that worked in the past were telling myself sweet lies that meaning exists but it doesn’t and it never did. What I do doesn’t matter and there isn’t anything special about being alive. What exactly was it that you used to believe? What objective meaningfulness did you think existed, up until recently? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/36 "2020-03-16T21:59:43Z")
You can’t so why bother? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/37 "2020-03-16T22:44:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My response to nihilism is “so what?”. You assert that life has no meaning. My question is, why should I be bothered by the fact that life has no meaning? Life being meaningless doesn’t make food taste worse or TV less entertaining or video games less fun. So what’s the problem? > > Seriously, why is this something that needs coping with? Life being meaningless doesn’t make it _unpleasant_. And for the flip side of that: imagine somebody tells you he saved a guy’s life, or taught him how to read; or created, or enjoyed, something — be it a delicious meal or a great work of art — or invented or discovered something useful, or helped a recovering addict resist temptation or whatever. But, he adds, what he found intolerable about the whole undertaking is that it wasn’t _meaningful_. What would that, uh, _mean?_ What, if added to that experience, would make it better, and in what way? What would Same-Thing-But-Now-It’s-Meaningful _look like?_ ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/38 "2020-03-16T23:25:59Z")
Your life has more meaning than you think. You are responsible for keeping 37 trillion cells in your body alive and kicking. Think about that: 37 trillion lifeforms depend on you and you alone to give them life. That’s a lot of responsibility. To all of those 37 trillion cells, your life has great meaning. So, next time you’re at a cocktail party and everyone’s bragging about what they do for a living (be it butcher, baker or candlestick maker), you can hold your head high and brag, “I support 37 trillion cells. Without me, they’re out of a job!” Of course, when you die you will condemn those 37 trillion cells to a slow, fetid, gooey death. So, that makes you kind of a jerk. BUT, your decaying body will have great meaning to countless worms and other fine members of the necrobiome community. So…there’s that. Life is meaningless? Pshaw! ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/39 "2020-03-16T23:35:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You can’t so why bother? \*\* throws leftover bong water at **msmith** \*\* Yeah OK it crossed my mind too ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561/40 "2020-03-17T07:41:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The things that I do that cause personal enjoyment have objectively true results - it is objectively true that they cause me personal enjoyment. As a human being I am incapable of refraining from making value judgements - some things are nasty and unpleasant; some things are pleasing and enjoyable. My brain and body makes these assessments whether I want them to or not. > > Thus, it’s objectively true that the things that I do have value, because I value the things I do. I enjoy the things I enjoy, and that is the value that the enjoyable things have. And it is a true valuation. Actually it’s not objectively true. You are still resisting nihilism. Nihilism is elimination of meaning, period. As the link was saying: “ Brassier’s nihilism does not reduce human existence to some sort of subjectivism. On the contrary, it strips it of all its clutter. Nihilism allows us to observe a reality that “is indifferent to our existence and oblivious to the values’ andmeanings’ which we would drape over it in order to make it more hospitable” (Prefrace xi). It is this atavistic need to urgently hold on to the illusion of meaning that impedes intellectual progress, and it is only by accepting that extinction and its subsequent nothingness eternally pervade all reality that humans can frame their ponderings appropriately. It is the role of philosophy to clear the way for the advancement of science and to create a dialogue through which both can advance towards intellectual maturity.” Meaning is just an illusion we drape to cope with existence. Because the world would be a radically different place if people realized that what they though mattered or had value doesn’t. Value judgments are, in a sense, a lie. In fact the unstable nature of values renders them rather meaningless at the end of the day. You can’t build anything solid on something inherently unstable, unless people don’t question it. But that’s still a “human centered” view of the world, which according to the link and author is the problem with philosophy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-fight-nihilism/849561.md?page=3)