# Can You Force People to Be "Green"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333 "2010-03-30T14:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/1 "2010-03-30T14:44:35Z")
Here in MA, we have a governor (Deval Patrick) who has challenged the laws of physics-he has signed a bill requiring MA electric utilities to buy a certain percentage of the ir electric power from solar energy plants. Of course, this is supposed to reduce CO2 emissions and help the planetary fever (alleged by Al Gore). My question: since solar power in New England is not (and will never be) competitive with coal-generated electric power, is this just throwing capital away? As I understand it, solar power is costly to generate, and costly to transmit (it is DC which must be transformed into AC). It also is very variable (obviously, no powere generated at night or in cloudy weather). The (bad) investment in solar power is a tax that the ratepayers will have to pay-so does this make any sense (from an economics point of view)? Or is it just another subsidy for politically connected businessmen? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/2 "2010-03-30T14:47:49Z")
Which law of physics is being violated? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/3 "2010-03-30T14:51:28Z")
Can you buy a new car without a catalytic converter? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/4 "2010-03-30T14:57:19Z")
If going green saves more money in the long run, then it makes sense economically. For instance, if I would pay $1 a year for coal energy for 20 years and then $5000 at the end of that point to rebuild New York because it had been demolished by a Global Warming-created tsunami, then I’d be out $5020. If, instead, I paid $10 per year for solar energy and there was no catastrophe, then I’d only be out $200. But, in the real world, buying solar energy in New England isn’t going to be cost effective in the long run, no. If they wanted to switch to nuclear energy, that might be worthwhile, but even there it probably won’t be unless you can stop a lot of the NIMBY and no-nuke obstructionism that drives up costs to above coal. And then it will only save you money because nuclear energy is cheaper, not because it’s going to save you from a catastrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/5 "2010-03-30T15:00:39Z")
This OP works about as well as… as… a solar panel at night. Obviously, the state can make laws requiring some type of mandatory standard of care for the environment. Obviously, so long as the increased cost of say, recycling waste motor oil or building more solar arrays, is reasonable to the goal being achieved, say, not having to deal with superfund sites of oil dumped in rivers or excessive particulate matter in the air, then there’s nothing really wrong with that. Obviously, we don’t do everything the cheapest way possible, otherwise there would be no minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/6 "2010-03-30T15:08:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which law of physics is being violated? Physicist checking in. The OP is under arrest for impersonating a law enforcement official. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/7 "2010-03-30T15:32:28Z")
Well, one aspect is that a solar cell will never return the energy invested in making it. This means that the capital invested in a solar power plant will never be revcovered…which qualifies it as a “bad investment”. The real question is: “is forcing people to pay more for electricity” a good energy policy? Suppose the government massively subsidized the sale of electric cars (and paid for it through taxes); would this be “good”? Of course, it would benefit the makers of the cars, but cause people to spend much for for transportation. I think it would wind up driving up the price of gaoline powered cars, once people realized how much better and cheaper to operate, they are. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/8 "2010-03-30T15:42:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, one aspect is that a solar cell will never return the energy invested in making it. How does that work? You only have to make the solar cell once and then it is converting energy everytime it is sunny. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/9 "2010-03-30T15:45:09Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, one aspect is that a solar cell will never return the energy invested in making it. Never say never. Hint: The solar cell does not operate in a closed system, so this isn’t a conservation of energy thing. Care to try again, or do we have to keep you in the slammer? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/10 "2010-03-30T15:49:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, one aspect is that a solar cell will never return the energy invested in making it. > This means that the capital invested in a solar power plant will never be revcovered..which qualifies it as a “bad investment”. You know what else is a “bad investment?” The police. They suck up lots and lots of public money, and they never issue enough speeding tickets to return all the money the government pours into the police department. Feh! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/11 "2010-03-30T15:53:17Z")
I think it’s appropriate, and also smart, for the government to subsidize technologies that are promising but not yet economically competitive. It can turn into boondoggles (ethanol) but in principle it’s a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/12 "2010-03-30T15:54:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You know what else is a “bad investment?” The police. They suck up lots and lots of public money, and they never issue enough speeding tickets to return all the money the government pours into the police department. Feh! You know who else made bad investments? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/13 "2010-03-30T16:09:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know who else made bad investments? Yeah, that guy with that funny mustache.. Chaplin! 🙂 (Actually his best move was to sell all his investments before Black Monday in 1928, but that was because he was divorcing at that time) As for the OP. I was hoping this was going to be a good discussion on the solutions proposed, but this example is not a challenged to the laws of physics, try again. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/14 "2010-03-30T16:20:32Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, one aspect is that a solar cell will never return the energy invested in making it. > This means that the capital invested in a solar power plant will never be revcovered..which qualifies it as a “bad investment”. > The real question is: “is forcing people to pay more for electricity” a good energy policy? > Suppose the government massively subsidized the sale of electric cars (and paid for it through taxes); would this be “good”? > Of course, it would benefit the makers of the cars, but cause people to spend much for for transportation. > I think it would wind up driving up the price of gaoline powered cars, once people realized how much better and cheaper to operate, they are. False green economy. You drive a hybrid that gets 35 MPG, but at the end of 5 years you have to replace and greenly get rid of the old batteries. I drive a diesel that gets me a steady 41-43 MPG from the start, and no odd batteries that need replacing and green discarding of the old ones. Right out of the box I get more miles per gallon, I do not have the burden of having firstly odd batteries, and secondly the need to at a fixed point replacing said batteries and having to arrange the discard of the old batteries. I can also run my vehicle on biodiesel. Biodiesel can be made by the recycling of used fry oil by the addition of IIRC sulphuric acid and lye, and produces glycerine as a waste byproduct that gets sold and used in the soap industry. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/15 "2010-03-30T16:22:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Never say never. > > Hint: The solar cell does not operate in a closed system, so this isn’t a conservation of energy thing. > > Care to try again, or do we have to keep you in the slammer? If you add, the energy to refine the silicon (huge), plus the energy to melt the silicon, plus the manufacturing of the modules and batteries, you will find that over the 20-year life , you never recover the energy invested. And, given that the electricity used to make the cells was most likley generated from coal, Al Gore will be mad at you! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/16 "2010-03-30T16:33:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > If you add, the energy to refine the silicon (huge), plus the energy to melt the silicon, plus the manufacturing of the modules and batteries, you will find that over the 20-year life , you never recover the energy invested. > And, given that the electricity used to make the cells was most likley generated from coal, Al Gore will be mad at you! :sigh: In the OP you say that it is Al Gore the one who is referring to a “fever”, Al Gore got it from the current scientific consensus. Killing the messenger was also a mayor fail of your OP. And then ignoring current developments is also silly: > **[Photovoltaics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics)** > > Photovoltaics (PV) is the conversion of light into electricity using semiconducting materials that exhibit the photovoltaic effect, a phenomenon studied in physics, photochemistry, and electrochemistry. The photovoltaic effect is commercially used for electricity generation and as photosensors. > A photovoltaic system employs solar modules, each comprising a number of solar cells, which generate electrical power. PV installations may be ground-mounted, rooftop-mounted, wall-mounted or floating. ... > [@](#): > > The current market leader in solar panel efficiency (measured by energy conversion ratio) is SunPower, a San Jose based company. Sunpower’s cells have a conversion ratio of 23.4%, well above the market average of 12-18%. However, advances past this efficiency mark are being pursued in academia and R&D labs with efficiencies of 42% achieved at the University of Delaware in conjunction with DuPont by means of concentration of light[29] The highest efficiencies achieved without concentration include Sharp Corporation at 35.8% using a proprietary triple-junction manufacturing technology in 2009[30], and Boeing Spectrolab (40.7% also using a triple layer design). A March 2010 experimental demonstration of a design by a Caltech group which has an absorption efficiency of 85% in sunlight and 95% at certain wavelengths (it is claimed to have near perfect quantum efficiency).[31] However, absorption efficiency should not be confused with the sunlight-to-electricity conversion efficiency. > [@](#): > > Physicists have claimed that recent technological developments bring the cost of solar energy more in parity with that of fossil fuels. In 2007, David Faiman, the director of the Ben-Gurion National Solar Energy Center of Israel, announced that the Center had entered into a project with Zenith Solar to create a home solar energy system that uses a 10 square meter reflector dish.[55] In testing, the concentrated solar technology proved to be up to five times more cost effective than standard flat photovoltaic silicon panels, which would make it almost the same cost as oil and natural gas.[56] A prototype ready for commercialization achieved a concentration of solar energy that was more than 1,000 times greater than standard flat panels.[57] ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/17 "2010-03-30T16:33:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > And, given that the electricity used to make the cells was most likley generated from coal, Al Gore will be mad at you! Not if the solar cells are made from energy produced in Massachusetts using the new solar farms! Gotcha ya! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/18 "2010-03-30T16:48:51Z")
Yes, but it’s not easy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/19 "2010-03-30T16:55:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Obviously, we don’t do everything the cheapest way possible, otherwise there would be no minimum wage. You’re assuming that the minimum wage raises the minimum wage. Here is a graph of the **median** hourly wage (X-axis) by the **mean** yearly income (Y-axis): [![](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/minimumwagebyincomedistribution.gif) ](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/minimumwagebyincomedistribution.gif) The line that runs through them is the average of the scatter plot. States in red have no minimum wage, states in gold have a minimum wage less than the Federal minimum wage, and states in green have a minimum wage higher than the Federal minimum wage (matching the image [here](http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm)). Now you might say that the red states are clearly behind and the green states clearly ahead, proving your point. That’s not really how the minimum wage works though. For you to raise those at the bottom, you have to lower those at the top, there’s simply no other way to come across the money to afford paying those at the bottom a higher minimum wage. Since the graph compares the median to the mean of income, any state with a larger income gap is going to appear to the left of the black line. If the minimum wage was actually taking from those at the top, it would decrease the income gap, and put the state on the right side of the black line. If it’s not affecting the income gap, then it’s unlikely that the minimum wage is actually raising the minimum wage from whatever it would naturally be in that region. Whether a state is to the right or left of the line doesn’t seem to be particularly linked to its color. Green seems to be more on the right, but so does red. Gold looks about even (if you average them up). People can’t survive without being able to earn a certain income. If an employer wants to hire people, he has to match whatever is needed for his employees to survive. No one’s going to go work for a company that doesn’t pay him enough to at least eek by. Or if they do, they’ll have to quit when they run out of money and can’t afford their apartment or electricity bill anymore, which doesn’t work for the company, and so they have to raise their entry wage. The “official” minimum wage is always just whatever the local minimum would already be. Politicians are just too wimpy to try and get more than that. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333/20 "2010-03-30T16:56:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :sigh: > > In the OP you say that it is Al Gore the one who is referring to a “fever”, Al Gore got it from the current scientific consensus. Killing the messenger was also a mayor fail of your OP. > > And then ignoring current developments is also silly: > > [Photovoltaics - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics) Oh, and just what do you do at night? There’s that pesky thing called “demand”-ever hear of it?:smack: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-force-people-to-be-green/534333.md?page=2)