# Can you forge someone's signature \*with their permission\*? Why are signatures still needed anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771 "2011-06-17T01:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/21 "2011-06-17T15:15:09Z")
I thought the customary way of signing on behalf of someone else (assuming you have permission) was _Canadjun’s signature_ per Someone Else. Or has has using **per** gone out of fashion? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/22 "2011-06-17T16:58:05Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > I thought the customary way of signing on behalf of someone else (assuming you have permission) was > > _Canadjun’s signature_ per Someone Else. > > Or has has using **per** gone out of fashion? I would do: " _jtgain’s signature_ FOR Canadjun " if I was authorized to sign for you. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/23 "2011-06-17T17:05:59Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > Anaamika and Argent Towers, > > It is not like signatures prior to these amazing digital times were are that good at authenticating things. When it really really matters You get signatures notarized which adds a licensed third party to the verification process. > > People have been working on the problem of authentication for a long long time and have not come up with solutions that are cheap, secure and easy to use. There are a fair number that get cheap and easy to use at the cost of security. I thought that, in a strict legal sense, a signature is any mark used to authenticate a document, and doesn’t have to have any specific form or even contain any part of your legal name, as long as the mark was made with actual intent to authenticate the document. So, in theory, I could make my “signature” be two hearts and a stick figure family, if I wanted it to be. I would probably have difficulty in real life, but if it ever got to court, “Your honor, robert\_columbia won’t sign this document! He just made a few heart and stick figure marks on it!” the judge would ask me if that is my signature and I could answer yes, and I would win. I know someone who once signed a fictitious name on a rent check (no intent to defraud) in order to check if anyone would notice. Nobody did and the check went through perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/24 "2011-06-17T17:26:17Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I thought that, in a strict legal sense, a signature is any mark used to authenticate a document, and doesn’t have to have any specific form or even contain any part of your legal name, as long as the mark was made with actual intent to authenticate the document. That’s exactly right. Under the common law, the sole requirement for a valid signature is intent to create a valid signature. It doesn’t matter what mark is made. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/25 "2011-06-17T20:01:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > “Wouldn’t it be fraud to present such a signature as the original?” > > Maybe it’s my wording. > > Wouldn’t it be fraud to present such a signature as one signed by the actual person in question, not one signed by yourself on his behalf. Well, in the context of a court order in my example, it would certainly be considered perpetrating a fraud upon the court, as well as the crime of forgery. I’d expect someone that did that intentionally would be disbarred. Lawyers are “officers of the court”. That means we may not knowingly lie or misrepresent any material fact to the court. It also means that if we are arguing for a position contra to controlling authority, we are required to cite the controlling authority to the court. For example, I could not argue to a court that “separate but equal” schools for children of different races is perfectly legal and something the court should approve without citing\* Brown v Board of Education\* which shot that argument down in flames years ago. I could, in theory, argue that my case is somehow distinguishable from Brown, or that Brown was wrongly decided and my local trial court should ignore one of the most famous SCOTUS opinions of the last century. My local trial court would then politely overrule me…well…ok…at least one Chancellor might announce from the bench that I was full of shit if I did something like that, but the point remains. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/26 "2011-06-17T22:06:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Is there some database of signatures that they check all signed documents like bills of sale against at the BMV? Or do they just assume the signature is correct, on the “honor system”? If the latter, then I ask again, what is the point of doing it at all? There is no point if there is no allegation of fraud or theft , but motor vehicles doesn’t know which transactions will result in allegations of fraud and/or theft If I sign a bill of sale transferring my watercraft to someone else and they register it, there’s no problem. The problem comes up when someone steals my boat and forges a bill of sale transferring it from me to them. At some point ( probably after I sue the person in possession of my boat) the signature on the form will be compared to other signatures of mine. In the same way that banks don’t check the signature on every check, but will if the account holder claims they didn’t sign the check. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/27 "2011-06-18T14:10:36Z")
When I was in the military, I occasionally had to sign official correspondence that was officially from my Commanding Officer. (The top of the correspondence stated: FROM: COMMANDING OFFICER, USS [SUBMARINE] TO: COMSUBGOD [or whatever]) The CO’s typed name block was at the bottom. Anyway, if the CO was not available (like it was after hours and he was at home), and _with his permission_, I would sign MY name over the CO’s name block, and write after my signature the notation “BY DIRECTION.” I would never have dreamed of signing my CO’s actual name, which seems to be what some others have said they have done, or have had their secretaries do. That seems awfully close to forgery. What do you do if the person whose name you’re signing denies they gave you permission? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/28 "2011-06-18T19:27:24Z")
The same thing you’d do if your CO denies giving you permission to sign your name where his would have gone? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/29 "2011-06-18T19:53:20Z")
There is no consistency to it. My mom is over 90, and I handle all her financial stuff for her. She lives in another state, so getting her signature on things is a hassle. You would think that filing her tax return would require a signature, but no. As long as I know what her AGI was last year, I can file for her with no problems. On the other hand, I once tried to open a CD with her as a joint owner at a local bank, and they refused to do it without her physical signature. They assured me that because of new laws after 9/11, it would be the same everywhere. I went home and opened an account for her over the internet, and nobody asked for a signature from her. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/30 "2011-06-18T23:54:41Z")
When my friend died, leaving behind a wife and young girl, that night the widow was nearly insane w/ grief and a general breakdown. He had committed suicide, where an autopsy is generally required, except for requests by religious Jews (in the ground in three days, etc.). She, her cousin, and the Rabbi agreed to write the letter, but she had already gone incommunicado by the time we worked out the wording. So I signed it. Almost a year later, the widow sued my ass for fraud. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/31 "2011-06-19T15:12:01Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The same thing you’d do if your CO denies giving you permission to sign your name where his would have gone? There’s a difference, though: if I sign (i.e. forge) my CO’s signature, there’s no way that an outside observer can tell whether or not I’m attempting to purport that the signature is actually the CO’s. By signing my own signature with the annotation “BY DIRECTION”, I’m making it very clear that I’m signing on the CO’s behalf (and that I’m not actually the CO), and that there is no intent to defraud. To put it another way, in the first situation, if the CO is asked later if he signed something sometime after the fact, he would simply say, “That’s not my signature.” If he’s presented with something signed with the “BY DIRECTION” method, he would simply say, “That’s LT Smith’s signature. He was on duty when that letter was signed, so it makes sense that I would have given him permission to sign for me ‘by direction.’” P.S. Nobody noticed the “COMSUBGOD” crack, eh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/32 "2011-06-20T00:27:02Z")
I feel that that’s a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/33 "2011-06-20T01:22:17Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I feel that that’s a distinction without a difference. It must hold legal weight. I signed dozens of arrest warrants that way when I was working and all of the people who were subsequently arrested ended up with a copy. You’d think at least one of them would have raised the issue if the warrants I was signing weren’t legally valid. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771/34 "2011-06-20T01:57:52Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > It is not like signatures prior to these amazing digital times were are that good at authenticating things. When it really really matters You get signatures notarized which adds a licensed third party to the verification process. When it matters even more, you get a signature guarantee from a bank. They’re normally used to securities transactions but my estate lawyer recommends them for PoAs if his clients have any significant assets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-forge-someones-signature-with-their-permission-why-are-signatures-still-needed-anyway/585771.md?page=1)