# Can you make Synthetic Kerosene without using ANY other fossil fuels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906 "2004-05-13T04:16:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/1 "2004-05-13T04:16:51Z")
As the saying goes, “I have an idea for a novel…” But this time, it’s NOT as a pretext to ask a question about something grossly illegal or dangerous. 😃 😉 I have a concept for a planet in a scifi/fantasy setting that has an Earth type biosphere and atmosphere, but is extremely poor in all fossil fuels, even coal. (A wizard did it.) Now, given this setup, but assuming you had technology available…would it still be possible to make _synthetic_ fossil fuels, like kerosene or gasoline? I know that it’s possible to make synthetic petroleum from _coal,_ which the Germans and South Africans have done. But…can you do it without using _any_ other fossil fuels as a base? And, if so, how hard would it be? Could it be done on an industrial scale? And what would be the rough minimum technological level a civilization would have to be to be able to do it? Well, thanks for your time, Ranchoth ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/2 "2004-05-13T04:27:43Z")
Yeah, the Russians developed a synthetic kerosene, called “Sintin” that they used as a component in rocket fuels. I can’t find much information on the web, though, other than the fact that it exists. I have no idea how it was manufactured, or how much it cost compared to petroleum-derived kerosene. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/3 "2004-05-13T04:29:56Z")
Actually there is a process that is operational that makes petroleum substitutes out of organic garbage such as turkey guts from a processing plant. It can’t really be called a net energy producer but it takes waste and makes into something useful. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/4 "2004-05-13T04:32:02Z")
You can make a poorer efficiency and more costly fuel from grains. Corn specifically has been used in ethanol, but with 15% gasoline. You could make it purely alcohol though. There are many technical barriers with this but it can be done. Of course, people could go another route and use hydro/wind/solar to make hydrogen ane just use that. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/5 "2004-05-13T05:40:59Z")
The process **Padeye** is refering to is known as [Thermal Depolymerization.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization) You can pretty much take any hydrocarbon source, and convert it into any other hydrocarbon you might need. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/6 "2004-05-13T05:57:16Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Actually there is a process that is operational that makes petroleum substitutes out of organic garbage such as turkey guts from a processing plant. It can’t really be called a net energy producer but it takes waste and makes into something useful. According to the Wikipedia article on Thermal Depolymerization that RandomLetters posted: > [@](#): > > Working with turkey offal as the feedstock, the process proved to have yield efficiencies of approximately 85%; in other words, the energy required to process materials could be supplied by using 15% of the petroleum output. Alternately, one could consider the energy efficiency of the process to be 560% (85 units of energy produced for 15 units of energy consumed). Higher efficiencies may be possible with drier and more carbon-rich feedstocks, such as waste plastic. > > By comparison, the current processes used to produce ethanol and biodiesel from agricultural sources have energy efficiencies in the 320% range when the energy used to produce the feedstocks is considered (in this case, usually sugar cane, corn, soybeans and the like). Doesn’t that indicate net energy production? Or is there some obvious point that I’m missing, perhaps due to a lack of sleep, I swear? In any case, sounds like this would be the perfect solution for the people living on the OP’s planet, so they could turn their organic garbage into easy-to-use fuels. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/7 "2004-05-13T10:42:00Z")
Kero is close to diesal and some have converted a diesal engine to run on used cooking oil, just the exhaust smells like french fries. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/8 "2004-05-13T11:09:23Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Doesn’t that indicate net energy production? Or is there some obvious point that I’m missing, perhaps due to a lack of sleep, I swear? No; the energy for the sybeans, corn, whatever, is coming from the sun. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/9 "2004-05-13T12:15:21Z")
Well, it is net energy for us, as we can get more energy out then we need to actively put into it. The energy from the sun is almost free. Thermal depolymerization just provides a convient way of storing solar energy for mobile use. Just like regular fossil fuels are actually stored solar power. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/10 "2004-05-13T16:14:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No; the energy for the sybeans, corn, whatever, is coming from the sun. Well, yes, but then, _any_ fuel is ultimately a net energy loss – entropy must increase, laws of thermodynamics, etc. etc. etc. … I assumed that “net energy gain” means that you end up with more energy available than there would have been otherwise. With a process that converts garbage into fuel, at greater than break-even efficiency, you pretty much have to be producing a net energy gain, don’t you? Otherwise the garbage would just be dumped in a hole somewhere. It’s not like it would have been used for some other purpose (by us, at least – I don’t count bacteria digesting it or anything like that) had it not been converted into fuel. It’s not like, say, a program where traditional fossil fuel is used to run tractors and other equipment to grow grain, which is then converted into ethanol, but more energy was used up by the fuel used to grow the grain than we get out of the ethanol. If the fuel hadn’t been used to grow grain for alcohol, it surely would have been used for some other purpose. But garbage would just be thrown away. Right? Or did I miss something else there? ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-make-synthetic-kerosene-without-using-any-other-fossil-fuels/244906/11 "2004-05-13T17:06:29Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No; the energy for the sybeans, corn, whatever, is coming from the sun. As did the energy for fossil fuels originally.