# Can you read IPA? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369 "2020-02-02T05:26:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/21 "2020-02-02T17:19:14Z")
had it in a linguistics class more then 40 years ago. Don’t remember any of it. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/22 "2020-02-02T17:34:36Z")
I was taught it back in grade school but when I try to read it in dictionaries/references today it is a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/23 "2020-02-02T17:34:39Z")
I have heard of it, but am not particularly fluent in it. The closest I have come to using it was when I used to write for an APA and would occasionally respond in SR1 (Spelling Reform 1), which is just using “e” for the short “e” sound wherever it appears (e.g. “ahead” is spelled “ahed”). ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/24 "2020-02-02T18:45:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Several of the reactions I see here and in other discussions about the IPA strike me as anti-knowledge, a kind of know-nothingism, full of anger that people are using knowledge that I have stubbornly refused to acquire. It’s baffling, especially in a forum dedicated to eradicating ignorance. With the exception of “annoyance” in post #7, I see no anger, know-nothingism, or stubbornness in this thread. On the contrary, your post strikes is the one that strikes me as angry: “I’M PISSED THAT YOU AREN’T INTERESTED IN WHAT I’M INTERESTED IN!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/25 "2020-02-02T18:52:47Z")
I’d rather [drink IPA](https://draughtlinesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/IPA-cover-990x556.png). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/26 "2020-02-02T18:53:25Z")
Learned it in high school, when I learned English. I thought it was kinda standard when learning a foreign language; after all, it’s how you get the pronunciation of words from the dictionary. Although I don’t read it very well anymore. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/27 "2020-02-02T18:54:35Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > It rarely comes up IME. When it does, “rhymes with custard, sort of” works fine for me. Then again, I always think Dawn and Don sound absolutely identical. And they do in your dialect, I’m sure, but they are night-and-day different to about half or more of the US that is not part of the cot-caught merger. And that sort of confusion seems to show up all the time in pronunciation threads. But, even IPA aside, there were two different symbols in the old-timey dictionary pronunciation guides for the vowel in Don and Dawn, too. Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary used a “ä” for the “ah” sound and a an “o” with a single dot over it, for example, for the “aw” sound. Other dictionaries, from my memory, may have used other symbols to disambiguate these two sounds. The nice thing about IPA is that it’s an international standard, at least, and folks from other language areas can all understand the symbology and not learn a whole new set of symbols (like how in at least American English, ā (a-macron) means “long a” which means /eɪ/ (in English. “Long A” means other things in other languages, which is why I don’t like it to describe a vowel sound – at least without further explanation – in pronunciation threads.) It’s a nice standard way to communicate pronunciation to an international audience, which the Straight Dope is. I mean, I also do it the “quick and dirty” way because I know people are stubborn about this, but I at least also know that some of the non-US posters who are familiar with IPA do appreciate the transcription into IPA (as well as the US posters who are versed in it, as it helps disambiguate sounds from regional dialects.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/28 "2020-02-02T19:19:06Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > With the exception of “annoyance” in post #7, I see no anger, know-nothingism, or stubbornness in this thread. On the contrary, your post strikes is the one that strikes me as angry: “I’M PISSED THAT YOU AREN’T INTERESTED IN WHAT I’M INTERESTED IN!!!” That’s all you. There’s nothing of that in my post. What bothers me are the repeated suggestions that using IPA is offensive or unwarranted in some way, that people who are using it are doing a disservice or committing an offense. There’s no call for being annoyed at seeing something that is new to you. That’s how learning happens. And if people are posting about pronunciation then they are de facto expressing exactly the same interest that I have. Getting annoyed by people using heh best available tool to talk about pronunciation is not a different of interest. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/29 "2020-02-02T19:26:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s all you. There’s nothing of that in my post. > > What bothers me are the repeated suggestions that using IPA is offensive or unwarranted in some way, that people who are using it are doing a disservice or committing an offense. There’s no call for being annoyed at seeing something that is new to you. That’s how learning happens. > > And if people are posting about pronunciation then they are de facto expressing exactly the same interest that I have. Getting annoyed by people using heh best available tool to talk about pronunciation is not a different of interest. Okay. Well … you say tomato, I say tomahto. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/30 "2020-02-02T20:05:30Z")
I learned it in Linguistics class, at university, years ago. I did like the one symbol/one sound concept. I don’t really use it anymore, except to read pronunciations on Wikipedia, but I’ve never forgotten it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/31 "2020-02-02T21:20:44Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > Man, I just DO NOT understand sentiments like this. How would you use “standard letters” to, say, demonstrate how a person from London or Liverpool pronounces “bath”? Or how a Dutch speaker pronounces “Amsterdam” or how an Italian speaker pronounces “Venezia”? … > > What do you do when you want to explain to someone how you pronounce a word? (The only reasonable answers I see are either “use IPA” or “I never do that”.) I never do that. At least, using written language. I’ve literally said “actually it’s pronounced Beijing” or whatever, but I can’t say I’ve thought of a time where I personally had to communicate in writing to someone who needed to know how to pronounce something. > [@Acsenray](#): > > What bothers me are the repeated suggestions that using IPA is offensive or unwarranted in some way, that people who are using it are doing a disservice or committing an offense. There’s no call for being annoyed at seeing something that is new to you. That’s how learning happens. Which posts in this thread (or elsewhere) do you think that using IPA is offensive? I can see that there are times when it is _unhelpful_ because it isn’t common knowledge. I mean, many many many more people will understand “to-MAH-to” than will understand “tʰə̥ˈmɐːtʰɐʉ” so I can see that using IPA in casual conversations is overly technical. In a sense, it’s like if I asked someone where the nearest grocery store is and they gave me the lat-long instead of the street address. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/32 "2020-02-02T21:37:46Z")
I took a college Spanish class in 2007. The teacher didn’t spend any time teaching pronunciation. She assumed we’d learn it from the IPA in the textbook. The class focused on grammar and creating sentences. That was fine for the 19 year olds fresh out of high school. I hired a tutor and recorded her pronunciation of the words as we covered them. Then reviewed the recording until I had it right. That was a tough class. I took it to broaden my skills at work. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/33 "2020-02-02T22:19:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … but I can’t say I’ve thought of a time where I personally had to communicate in writing to someone who needed to know how to pronounce something. Discussion of pronunciation happens all the time on the SDMB. I don’t consider it a particularly esoteric or academic or specialized subject. All of us all the time are pronouncing things and hearing other people pronounce things, and around here people talk about pronuncation. > [@](#): > > Which posts in this thread (or elsewhere) do you think that using IPA is offensive? This is a viewpoint that comes up every once in a while here. “Don’t use those stupid dictionary symbols,” is a phrase stuck in my memory. Here’s one example — > [@IPA in the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/63): > > IPA is totally messed up. An incredible hodgepodge of symbols that make no sense whatsoever. While a “universal” alphabet is desirable, the way the IPA has gone about it is unbelievably bad. > > Avoid it around “normal” people. I.e., nearly everyone. > [@](#): > > I can see that there are times when it is _unhelpful_ because it isn’t common knowledge. I mean, many many many more people will understand “to-MAH-to” than will understand “tʰə̥ˈmɐːtʰɐʉ” I don’t know exactly how to respond to this, because it seems to be intentionally deceptive. I’ve posted in a lot of threads about pronunciation using I.P.A. and non-I.P.A. methods. I’ve never used a transcription like “tʰə̥ˈmɐːtʰɐʉ” to note a basic difference in alternative pronunciations of a word. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/34 "2020-02-02T22:26:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t know exactly how to respond to this, because it seems to be intentionally deceptive. I’ve posted in a lot of threads about pronunciation using I.P.A. and non-I.P.A. methods. I’ve never used a transcription like “tʰə̥ˈmɐːtʰɐʉ” to note a basic difference in alternative pronunciations of a word. Don’t take offense. I sort of recognize your name, and I don’t know a damn thing about your posting history. I’m saying that if anyone relies on IPA in general discussion, the odds are very high that their audience won’t get it. If indeed you have posted IPA and non-IPA pronunciations, then it would seem we agree on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/35 "2020-02-02T22:46:30Z")
It’s not that I think you are trying to misrepresent me personally. It’s that I think you’re trying too misrepresent how IPA is used. You posted a transcription using very specific set of high-level symbols. No one would use IPA in that way to talk about the two basic pronunciations of “tomato.” More likely you would see [təmeɪtoʊ] and [təmatoʊ]. And that would form a very good lesson on a few of the basic symbols. And, no, my use of multiple systems is not an admission that IPA is inappropriate for general use. I do it because IPA is the best tool to use and for those people who might be seeing it for the first time, the alternative might act as a rough guide. That’s how I learned the Basic symbols, Just by being exposed to their use on discussion boards. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/36 "2020-02-02T22:56:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And, no, my use of multiple systems is not an admission that IPA is inappropriate for general use. I do it because IPA is the best tool to use and for those people who might be seeing it for the first time, the alternative might act as a rough guide. That’s how I learned the Basic symbols, Just by being exposed to their use on discussion boards. Are you surprised by the results of the poll so far? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/37 "2020-02-02T23:11:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you surprised by the results of the poll so far? I have no idea what would be standard for surprising with respect to this poll. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/38 "2020-02-03T00:05:19Z")
dup ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/39 "2020-02-03T02:12:55Z")
Taiwan uses a system called K.K., [Kenyon and Knott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pronouncing_Dictionary_of_American_English) which is similar but not identical to IPA. Here is [a chart](https://p3-tt.bytecdn.cn/img/mosaic-legacy/9b2200009196dd5098f5~noop_645x473.jpeg) which compares some of the symbols. Teaching English here, then I got exposed to K.K. because they are used in the material for some of the English classes. > [@IPA in the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/63): > > Discussion of pronunciation happens all the time on the SDMB. I don’t consider it a particularly esoteric or academic or specialized subject. All of us all the time are pronouncing things and hearing other people pronounce things, and around here people talk about pronuncation. > > This is a viewpoint that comes up every once in a while here. “Don’t use those stupid dictionary symbols,” is a phrase stuck in my memory. > > Here’s one example — > > > [@IPA in the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/63): > > > > IPA is totally messed up. An incredible hodgepodge of symbols that make no sense whatsoever. While a “universal” alphabet is desirable, the way the IPA has gone about it is unbelievably bad. > > > > Avoid it around “normal” people. I.e., nearly everyone. Yes, but look at the very first reply on that thread: > [@IPA in the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/2): > > I don’t think IPA usage should be mandated but I reserve the right to giggle behind my hand at people trying to compare pronunciations without using IPA or X-SAMPA or another phonetic notation system. I’m surprised that there weren’t more responses like ftg’s after that condescending post. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369/40 "2020-02-03T02:16:15Z")
One person’s ignorant statement doesn’t justify another persons ignorant statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-read-ipa/847369.md?page=3)