# Can you really get off the utility Grid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100 "2010-05-28T18:46:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/21 "2010-05-29T15:15:44Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > :dubious: Really? A home flywheel system? Or is that a whoosh? Seems to be way over the top for a storage system. Currently they are since most are for industrial use and made for high current fast discharge but i can’t see going green and replacing lead batteries every 5 years ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/22 "2010-05-29T17:36:31Z")
for home heating and cooling in northern USA. with a super insulated and passive solar heating you might not have to start heating until sometime in November and can stop heating at the end of March. you can cool only with fan blown night air and have no air conditioner or only a window unit for a room or section of your home. depends on your comfort zone. solar thermal heat collectors to preheat or heat your domestic hot water will payback in 4 or 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/23 "2010-05-29T19:21:45Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > If you live within a traditional electric utility’s franchise it has to provide you with power and it can’t charge you for the construction of the power lines. This may be the case in some areas and some states; it is by no means universal. They may have to get it to your property line, from there to your house is your business, and in some cases, that may be quite a ways. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/24 "2010-05-29T20:01:00Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > with a super insulated and passive solar heating you might not have to start heating until sometime in November and can stop heating at the end of March. you can cool only with fan blown night air and have no air conditioner or only a window unit for a room or section of your home. depends on your comfort zone. Yes. Add thermal mass inside the insulation, to store the sun’s heat, and even in cold areas, you may not need a furnace. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/25 "2010-05-29T20:12:08Z")
Quoth **Tom Tildrum** : > [@](#): > > I think it’s more accurate to say that you’re subject to blackouts like anyone else, but you don’t have to wait for the power company to fix them. You can get right out there and fix them yourself. Well, to be fair, he did say “blackouts _beyond your control_”. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/26 "2010-05-29T20:53:07Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > …That’s one reason I love living a block off a major thoroughfare in a neighborhood with buried lines. If my power goes out, chances are hundreds of other households are out, too. Strength in numbers. Back when California was having it’s rolling blackouts I remember reading that because of the way the grid was set homes close to things like hospitals, nursing homes, or government buildings shared in their exemption from blackouts. How true is that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/27 "2010-05-29T21:46:09Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Back when California was having it’s rolling blackouts I remember reading that because of the way the grid was set homes close to things like hospitals, nursing homes, or government buildings shared in their exemption from blackouts. How true is that? Quite true; I lived near a fire department building and never experienced any blackouts. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/28 "2010-05-29T22:50:31Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Back when California was having it’s rolling blackouts I remember reading that because of the way the grid was set homes close to things like hospitals, nursing homes, or government buildings shared in their exemption from blackouts. How true is that? The southwest and northeast parts of the U.S. are somewhat overloaded, and always experience problems of some sort or another during peak usage (hot summer days, with all of the air conditioners and such). Both areas, because they are so heavily loaded, are vulnerable to what is called a “cascade failure”. A cascade failure works like this. Let’s say you have 3 power companies, A, B, and C. A doesn’t have enough generators to power all of its customers at peak time, so it buys power from B. But B can’t power all of its customers plus some of A’s customers at peak time either, so it buys power from C. Now let’s say everyone is running at peak and C loses a generator. The remaining generators can’t supply power for C and the extra power that B needs too, so C’s system trips due to the over-current. B now doesn’t have enough power for both its customers and A, so it trips too. A is now overloaded and it trips too. So even though only one generator went down (which wouldn’t be a problem if everything wasn’t loaded so heavily) three entire systems went down as a result. The problem just keeps cascading from one system to the next, etc. That’s why it is called a cascade failure. (Note - this is a bit of an oversimplification, but it should get the basic idea across) If you start running out of power, you can intentionally shut down parts of the system to cut down the power usage. To be fair, you don’t want to just leave one group of people without power for days on end, so instead you shut down one area for a while, then a different area, and so on. This is your “rolling blackout” because the area being blacked out changes. The power company isn’t going to shut down power to hospitals and the like, so homes that are close to hospitals and such aren’t going to lose power. The thing is, California didn’t have rolling blackouts because they overloaded the grid. Using the above example, A, B, and C didn’t have all of their business arrangements together, to even though A could have bought power from B and B could have bought power from C, A and B both end up with rolling blackouts because they don’t have agreements in place to get the power they need. It was more of a bean counter problem than a true overloading problem. There are some misconceptions about what “the grid” is. There isn’t some great big power grid that blankets the entire U.S. that you can shove power into anywhere and take power from anywhere. The grid is really just a bunch of independent power systems that all have ties to each other. The U.S. isn’t even one big grid. It is split up into several grids. There’s an east grid, a west grid, and Texas (for some reason Texas always has to be on its own). In power, you have “transmission” and “distribution”. Transmission gets power from generators to substations and such, or gets power from one power company’s system to another. The “grid” doesn’t work all the way down at the local level though. That’s distribution. Distribution takes power and distributes it to all of the users. Most areas have redundant distribution, so that if one power feed fails they can switch over to a different substation and huge areas aren’t without power for too long. When they do rolling blackouts they turn off different distribution feeds. This affects the overall power usage but it doesn’t really affect the grid other than it reduces the load that has to be transferred from one system to another. Rolling blackouts are a local thing. They aren’t a grid-wide thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/29 "2010-05-29T23:14:18Z")
Answer to the OP: Yes, it’s absolutely possible, and yes (in some circumstances) it’s well worth it. I don’t mean anything snarky by this, but why would you think it wasn’t possible? There are off-the-grid houses within a couple hours drive of just about every major city in the country. > [@Twoflower](#): > > If you live far enough out in the boonies, it’s entirely possible that having your own generator is cheaper than having powerlines strung far enough to reach you. Possibly, although given fuel costs, generators are more likely to be used as backups as opposed to primary power sources. > [@DCnDC](#): > > Absolutely possible. However, the up-front investment is quite substantial. Probably 50-100% the cost of your house by the time you’re completely off the grid. Only if it’s a pretty cheap house. You can go off the grid for $50K or less. > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > If you live within a traditional electric utility’s franchise it has to provide you with power and it can’t charge you for the construction of the power lines. Absolutely not true in Montana. A friend was just quoted $37,000 to get his property hooked up. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Currently they are since most are for industrial use and made for high current fast discharge but i can’t see going green and replacing lead batteries every 5 years They may quote five years, but from what my off-the-grid friends tell me, they rarely achieve more than three or four. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/30 "2010-05-29T23:35:43Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > If you live within a traditional electric utility’s franchise it has to provide you with power and it can’t charge you for the construction of the power lines. > > The cost would go into ‘rate base,’ upon which the company earns a regulated return on equity. In fact, most utility’s would be thrilled to have you force them to build more transmission, as expanidng rate base is the ‘primary objective.’ They will be able to recover on the asset, from every rate-payer, forever. > > Now, if you are outside of the franchise (a franchise is simply an area in which a utility has been granted a monopoly - that’s the crux of the deal by the way - we give you monopoly rights and you have the duty to provide the servce to _all_ comers, at a regulated rate of return) - then you have more issues. Traditionally, this was addressed therough the rural electification act and the creation of a bunch or electric coops, but there are still some gaps I would guess. PG&E provided power to the property next to my brothers home. And no they will not run the lines for free. He will have to pay to have a trench with a pull box every 50 feet run from the pole at the neighbors to his house. His solution is he has two diesel generators, one small the other larger. He has looked putting in solar with battery storage. The cost is about 110% of the cost of putting in PG&E. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/31 "2010-05-29T23:47:43Z")
Of course you can. I’m sure there’s over a billion people living that way. Of course we call them destitute and not Eco-freaks. Their up-front is minimal, however it’s usually a month’s income for them. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/32 "2010-05-29T23:50:22Z")
Around here they won’t run the lines for free either. If you run your own generators and you hook up to the power company, they are required to buy the excess power that you generate. There are some extra costs for special metering and switch gear, but the nice thing about doing it this way is that when something breaks on your own system you can use the power company as a backup until you get your own stuff fixed. Rules vary about whether you have to pay to run the lines and how much money (if any) that the power company will pay you to buy the excess energy that you generate. Check with your local power company to find out what is required in your area. Also, some areas give you financial incentives to put in your own systems (typically if they are solar). If you live in an area with a lot of sunlight and your area has these incentives (state, local, or otherwise) you may have a lot of up-front costs, but in the long run it is either very competitive or may actually be cheaper than using the power company’s power. Personally, if I were doing this, I would spend a little extra and hook up to the power company. They would be my backup in case something on my system broke and I couldn’t get parts for a few days. I wouldn’t get rich selling power to the power company, but it would be nice to get a check from them (however small) instead of it being the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/33 "2010-05-30T01:12:09Z")
Another big advantage to hooking up to the grid and selling power back is that you can do without batteries (which can be one of the costlier elements of an off-grid system), since you can effectively use the grid as a battery. Over the course of the day, sometimes you’ll be selling power, and sometimes you’ll be buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/34 "2010-05-30T03:32:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another big advantage to hooking up to the grid and selling power back is that you can do without batteries (which can be one of the costlier elements of an off-grid system), since you can effectively use the grid as a battery. Over the course of the day, sometimes you’ll be selling power, and sometimes you’ll be buying it. The cost of the batteries is what keeps my brother on his generators. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/35 "2010-05-30T04:06:08Z")
Also check out COUNTRYSIDE AND SMALL STOCK JOURNAL for ideas and stories about living off grid, going off the grid, and the like. Excellent magazine just to read too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/36 "2010-05-30T04:37:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Quite true; I lived near a fire department building and never experienced any blackouts. If you live in LAX it was a different grid. they have their own power company. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/37 "2010-05-30T05:51:28Z")
I haven’t verified this but I was told some states force you to pay for utility connection whether you want it or not. Not sure how to research that. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/38 "2010-05-30T16:04:26Z")
Not residential but, I worked a company in Frico that was 4 new office buildings. When they were built PG&E determined what the monthly KWH of the buildings should be when fully occupied. Baised on the buildings using that amount they gave a credit to the cost of hooking up power to the 7 substations. In the first year the buildings were not fully occupied, one was completely empty for over a year. According to the director of engineering it was going to cost a little more than a million because they were not using enough electricity. His solution he went out and rented some large load banks and just burned up poere for two months until he had made the projected amounts of power in each building. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/39 "2010-05-31T00:06:45Z")
Some, at least, old order Amish have always lived off the grid. Of course it can be done. They do use generators for some purposes (like running a computer at ehir businesses). Air conditioning is in no way a necessity I didn’t have any growing up in Philly and don’t have it now in Montreal, admittedly cooler. We do have window fans and that’s enough. I was just reading about a building in Montreal (Verdun) that is going to be electically neutral. It will be condos, have solar panels on the roof, use a heat pump connected to a pipe hundreds of feet deep for heating in the winter and cooling in the summer. They expect to buy power in the winter and sell it in the summer.They weren’t cheap, but not utterly outrageous either. A 1040 sq. ft. apartment was going to sell at under $300K. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100/40 "2010-05-31T00:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I was just reading about a building in Montreal (Verdun) that is going to be electically neutral. It will be condos, have solar panels on the roof, use a heat pump connected to a pipe hundreds of feet deep for heating in the winter and cooling in the summer. They expect to buy power in the winter and sell it in the summer.They weren’t cheap, but not utterly outrageous either. A 1040 sq. ft. apartment was going to sell at under $300K. What expectations do they have on power usage per resident? Will they be enforcing limits in any way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-get-off-the-utility-grid/541100.md?page=1)