# Can you really hear the "time" of a song? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243 "2010-05-13T00:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/41 "2010-05-13T19:04:42Z")
Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case? Just for trivia’s sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers’ [_Flowers Of Bermuda_](http://www.last.fm/music/Stan+Rogers/_/The+Flowers+of+Bermuda) would be? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/42 "2010-05-13T19:28:40Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > 4/4 time (four four time) = boom chick boom chick > > 3/4 time = boom chick chick > > 6/9 time = boom chicka bow wow > [@panache45](#): > > 6/9? Methinks me heard a whooshing noise just overhead. 69 😉 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/43 "2010-05-13T19:44:04Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Methinks me heard a whooshing noise just overhead. > > 69 😉 I have to confess I fell for that one . . . hard. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/44 "2010-05-13T20:24:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case? You’ll occasionally see medieval chants in a Catholic church which have no time signature. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in modern music, though. It should be mentioned for the OP’s benefit, by the way, that for purposes of sound, it’s mostly just the first number in the time signature that matters. The second will only affect how it’s written down. So it’s common to refer to a piece as being “in four”, or “in three”, or whatever, instead of “4/4” or “3/4”. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/45 "2010-05-13T20:34:01Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > To really mess you up, try to find the beat in the first part of “Money” by Pink Floyd. > > It’s written in 7/4 :eek: > > And there’s a Rush songs in 7/4: The Spirit of Radio > and 7/8: > Tom Sawyer (instrumental part) > La Villa Strangiato The beginning of _Subdivisions_ is in 7/8. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/46 "2010-05-13T20:46:10Z")
I know very little about music, but I do enjoy dancing, so I usually hear the time of a song pretty clearly because some deep, dark part of me is trying to figure if I should waltz or foxtrot to it. Since that’s damn near all that I know about music, I tend to notice very quickly. Load that “Oom pah pah” clip that someone linked earlier. Tap your foot with the music. Now, notice that it feels natural to emphasize every third beat, as though those words were more important. It’ll go like this: OOM pah pah OOM pah pah THAT’s how it GOES OOM pah pah OOM pah pah EVERY one knows THEY can sup- POSE what they WANT to sup- POSE WHEN they hear OOM pah pah! ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/47 "2010-05-13T21:00:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn’t 6/8=3/4? Don’t think of it as a fraction. Think of it as a blueprint. The first number (6) tells you how many beats in a measure. The second number (8) tells you that an 8th note is one count. So in three-four time, 3 beats per measure, quarter note is one count. (ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three) In 6/8, six beats to the measure, 8th note is one count. (ONE two three four five six ONE two three four five six) (But often in 6/8 time there is a small stress on the 4 beat) So you could write a 6-beat-per-bar thing with quarter notes, it would be 6/4. The music would look different but it would sound about the same. ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/48 "2010-05-13T21:04:33Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > Just for trivia’s sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers’ [_Flowers Of Bermuda_](http://www.last.fm/music/Stan+Rogers/_/The+Flowers+of+Bermuda) would be? I can’t answer your question (although I’m curious about the answer), but I have to say I _love_ this song. It’s the most upbeat death song I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![YoudNeverGuess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a587f6/32.png) [@YoudNeverGuess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoudNeverGuess)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/49 "2010-05-13T21:17:09Z")
There are many different cues to give the listener a sense of a definite pulse or time-signature in music. This can depend most crudely on accents i.e one beat being given more emphasis through being louder, or it can be done through melody, where the ‘home’ notes in a given phrase where the melody hits on a harmony note rather than an ‘inessential’ passing or auxillary note on the beat, or texture where a bass line or percussion instrument plays a definite pulse or through harmony where there is more consonance on the beat. It’s really quite complicated when you get down to the nitty gritty and there’s no completely easy answer. The answers given above are really only a starting point to understanding rhythm in music. And whether it’s ‘really’ possible to hear what time signature a piece is in? Yes, most definitely. Otherwise what would be the point in having them/ writing music this way? So others can read what you’ve written and reproduce the intended musical ‘feel’ of it in a performance. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/50 "2010-05-13T21:50:51Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case? > > Just for trivia’s sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers’ [_Flowers Of Bermuda_](http://www.last.fm/music/Stan+Rogers/_/The+Flowers+of+Bermuda) would be? Yes, a song or portion of a song can be in “free” time. But in such a case, the music is usually largely improvisational, and not following any written notes with defined durations. Judging by that sample, the Stan Rogers song is in 4/4, just with some tricky displaced accents here and there. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/51 "2010-05-13T21:53:10Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > The beginning of _Subdivisions_ is in 7/8. I believe “Losing It” (from the \*Signals \*album) is in 5/4. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/52 "2010-05-13T22:04:50Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > So you could write a 6-beat-per-bar thing with quarter notes, it would be 6/4. The music would look different but it would sound about the same. This is only true if all 6 beats are even. That’s not always the case, though. A good number of songs in 6/4 are three sets of 2, as opposed to 2 sets of 3, which is what many 6/8 songs are. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/53 "2010-05-13T23:44:05Z")
I can’t find an example to listen to online, but the Mason Williams song “The Last Great Waltz” is a fun one. The story tells about a perfectionist who loves to waltz (ONE, two, three) but is so picky nobody will dance with him. He’s at a dance being all angsty, when he spots a girl dancing the waltz by herself, which she can do because she has three feet (“FIRST the right foot, THEN the middle foot, THEN the left foot, THEN I repeat”) and he asks her to dance and the two voices merge into a duet for the final verse/chorus–in 5/4 time. One of the funnier musical jokes around, I think. ETA: There’s a YouTube video of some old fart playing the song on a geetar, but he can’t manage the time signature of the ending so don’t subject yourself to it, just sayin’–he’s really not at all good. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/54 "2010-05-14T00:04:52Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > This is only true if all 6 beats are even. That’s not always the case, though. A good number of songs in 6/4 are three sets of 2, as opposed to 2 sets of 3, which is what many 6/8 songs are. No, I’m sorry. If it is really 3 sets of two, it would be better to have been written out in 3/2. If it is in 6/4, that tells me that there are two sets of three quarter notes in each bar. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/55 "2010-05-14T00:10:52Z")
For me it’s entirely academic. I know that “7/4 (Shoreline)” by Broken Social Scene is another one of those rare songs in 7/4 time because I’ve read that it is, but I don’t hear anything special about it. Or, rather, I don’t hear anything _ **more** _ unusual about it than the differences between songs that are both in 4/4 or 3/4 time - songs of the same time signature don’t seem obviously so for me, either. And from using a program to analyze BPM I’m no great shakes at predicting that beyond a certain point either, tending to think that some songs with a high BPM are not nearly as high as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/56 "2010-05-14T00:13:13Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > If it is in 6/4, that tells me that there are two sets of three quarter notes in each bar. Here’s an example: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/62p-CXrYmf4/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/62p-CXrYmf4?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Notice how your _could_ count it as 3/4, but it feels more “together” to count a pattern of six beats. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/57 "2010-05-14T01:03:01Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case? As mentioned, Gregorian and some other chants don’t have time signatures. I know that at least some of Olivier Messiaen’s works for organ are like that as well. He uses measures, but the number of beats per measure varies. > [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn’t 6/8=3/4? Mathematically, yes. Musically, by convention, they’re different, as already explained. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/58 "2010-05-14T01:19:32Z")
Wow, I see I got 56 hits in about 24hrs! Is that a record? :eek: Thanks, all. Not sure why a 1-2-3 pattern couldn’t be 3/3 time. Maybe only because that’s unheard of? I mean, if you can have 1-2-3-4 as 4/4 time… Stop laughing! No, that was not a joke! I play piano ok by ear. I know how long or short to hold each note. I also play drums. I can imitate rhythyms without bothering to know the timing. I just…do it. I know what needs to be done, and I play it. So, I am not really sure what people are hearing, or I do it without realizing it. I play well enough for myself. So, I guess I won’t get invited to Carnegie Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/59 "2010-05-14T01:45:56Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > Thanks, all. Not sure why a 1-2-3 pattern couldn’t be 3/3 time. Maybe only because that’s unheard of? I mean, if you can have 1-2-3-4 as 4/4 time… Stop laughing! No, that was not a joke! The bottom number in a time signature indicates what _kind of note_, i.e., what _note length_, is being used as the basic pulse. Because our system of note lengths works by dividing any given note length in **half** to get the next shorter note–we have whole notes, half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes, etc.–that number will always be a power of two. (Almost always 4 or 8, just because common use has made quarter notes and eighth notes the most familiar and convenient to work with.) So the reason you can’t have 3/3 is because there is no such thing as a “third note.”(That doesn’t mean you can’t divide a beat into thirds. 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 meters all do that in a way; so does a notation called a triplet. So an actual symbol for a “third note” is unnecessary.) ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243/60 "2010-05-14T01:54:46Z")
I’ve been playing guitar (mostly rock music) for nearly 15 years and I don’t think time signatures have ever been important for what I play. I’ve never once had a band member stop playing to ask “what time signature are we playing in?”. It’s never come up. The only place where it might be important for me to know would be if I were learning a new song, but even then, since I learn mostly by ear anyways, I would probably just listen to a recording of it to get a feel for the beat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-you-really-hear-the-time-of-a-song/539243.md?page=4)